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Old 03-27-2013   #51
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
DDT is limiting, damn good limiting at that. Beats the fuck out of Crown's ODEP... that's horrible shit.
Gotta love Jack Sondermeyer and his bullet proof designs! I attended two of the Peavey Advanced Sound Reinforcement 5-day seminars in Meridian Mississippi back in the 90's - got to meet and learn from all kinds of awesome engineers @ Peavey. They really do get a bad wrap IMO (sometimes they might deserve it, but only from a "cheap is good / poor musician" angle). I still despise their lack of any sub-40Hz response in most of their subs When I asked one of their PA Speaker designers why they simply cut holes in a baffle and call it a "Port", he stated the 3/4" thickness of the baffle WAS the port length!!! This was for an SP2 "Main" speaker, but still - a 3/4" long port???!!!!??? I guess it works for their relatively high f3/fb response in exchange for extra efficiency...

I'm still rocking some older SP2XT's and Impulse200's, and have a few CS800x's in storage.


Back on topic: I like how MarkZ recapped this - that should clear up anyone's misunderstandings about clipping and RMS power IMO.

And his "[the caveat here is when tweeters are on passive crossovers... then it's a different story]" statement is spot on wrt my previous comments on how/why clipping can kill tweets more easily than a woofer (in a passive full-range system).


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Old 03-27-2013   #52
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

While you were in Meridian did you do any partying with Max? He's a good time. I spent a bunch of time down there too. Did a LOT of peavey service and was one of the few that did mass repairs on the DPC stuff. Can still repair those damn things in my sleep.

It was not uncommon to use a "hole" for the vent. Hell, I designed an enclosure recently that never transpired that had just the same thing. Looked damn good on paper too.

Not many pro subs go much below 40, the Q-Wave stuff does now.... Not much below. Hell, the SP series subs did not get much below 50!

I worked a bit in the field development of the BWX series. Broke 4 at a time without the coil looking anything but brand new. Then they got the suspension issues worked out




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Old 03-27-2013   #53
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

OK - A little more OT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
While you were in Meridian did you do any partying with Max? He's a good time. I spent a bunch of time down there too. Did a LOT of peavey service and was one of the few that did mass repairs on the DPC stuff. Can still repair those damn things in my sleep.

It was not uncommon to use a "hole" for the vent. Hell, I designed an enclosure recently that never transpired that had just the same thing. Looked damn good on paper too.

Not many pro subs go much below 40, the Q-Wave stuff does now.... Not much below. Hell, the SP series subs did not get much below 50!

I worked a bit in the field development of the BWX series. Broke 4 at a time without the coil looking anything but brand new. Then they got the suspension issues worked out
"Max" rings a bell - it was in the mid 90's. Our regional Peavey Rep came down there with me - can't remember his name ATM. I remember Marty McCann (spelling) giving most of the lectures. Spent a lot of time in the fish bowl and auditorium jamming, too

Agreed on the SP118 subs - useless below 50Hz Their BW suspensions always seemed to be a limiting factor to me, too. The coils can take the power for sure, and they make a killer "Woofer" - but Peavey makes their compromises - they rob Peter (low bass) to pay Paul (efficiency and low cost). I much prefer my JBL 2241G's where Peter and Paul both end up rich (by robbing my wallet!) Peavey's BWX and Low Riders seem to be a step in the right direction. It's cool that you were involved with their development IMNSHO...

Back to the "Power" talk


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Old 03-28-2013   #54
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Just a closing article on the subject matter for those looking for more clarity. Where I first learned about it, as I am sure many others. Sourced from A2000 tech briefs:

http://www.monsterproducts.com/mpc/s...Some_Facts.pdf

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Old 03-28-2013   #55
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillyyo View Post
Just a closing article on the subject matter for those looking for more clarity. Where I first learned about it, as I am sure many others. Sourced from A2000 tech briefs:

http://www.monsterproducts.com/mpc/s...Some_Facts.pdf
Odd - I'm not sure if I agree with all of R.C.'s findings with regard to clipping and how the energy is dispersed through the octaves. He appears to be talking about clipping a single low-frequency sinewave, and is not taking into account clipping complex full-range waveforms. He seems to suggest that clipping a full-range system WILL NOT blow tweets - but we know that is not the case.

JBL certainly states otherwise:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf

I dig and respect R.C. and all, but I'll believe JBL/Harmon (and my own Live Sound experience) well before some car audio buff

And even though the clipped harmonics are distributed throughout the frequency range, when you clip a sub amp that's actively crossed, ALL of this energy still goes to the Woofer's coil (the woofer has no passive x-over to filter this energy out). Plus the much higher "duty-cycle" of the clipped waveform further increases RMS Power...


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Old 03-29-2013   #56
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

http://www.adx.co.nz/techinfo/audio/note128.pdf




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Old 03-29-2013   #57
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

That makes more sense IMO. So it's mainly that the full-range amp can keep increasing the HF content's power (since it is already relatively small compared to the bass) when the user is slamming the low-frequency spectrum into clipping. As long as the woofer can handle the total RMS heat of the clipped amp (generally a max of 2x clean rated RMS power), the woofer will keep on chugging just fine (but sound like ass). That combined with the small increase in harmonics due to clipping the woofer, and your tweets are toast just as JBL mentioned above...


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Old 03-29-2013   #58
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Yup, just wanted to toss it in there.

Peeps gotta understand that the examples of clipping that are shown are GROSS examples, not a flicker or a waveform hitting the rail real quick like but rather SLAMMING the rails.




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Old 03-31-2013   #59
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyman... View Post
Odd - I'm not sure if I agree with all of R.C.'s findings with regard to clipping and how the energy is dispersed through the octaves. He appears to be talking about clipping a single low-frequency sinewave, and is not taking into account clipping complex full-range waveforms. He seems to suggest that clipping a full-range system WILL NOT blow tweets - but we know that is not the case.

JBL certainly states otherwise:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf

I dig and respect R.C. and all, but I'll believe JBL/Harmon (and my own Live Sound experience) well before some car audio buff

And even though the clipped harmonics are distributed throughout the frequency range, when you clip a sub amp that's actively crossed, ALL of this energy still goes to the Woofer's coil (the woofer has no passive x-over to filter this energy out). Plus the much higher "duty-cycle" of the clipped waveform further increases RMS Power...

IMO you are misinterpreting what RC is saying. He said it is seldom the case, implying infrequent occurrence, not omission of occurrence. Likely due to his implied assumption of proper application. Nevertheless, The Rane article and JBL articles agree with exactly as what Richard's data indicated...that excessive power from an x level of clipped signal, can damage tweeters. RC just seems to assume that the tweeter will be properly applied and set up in a system, so there is no reason to experience full amp saturation.

Rane and JBL have an interest in expressing the information in the manner they did. I don't see the interest for RC. Everything in the tech brief if reproducible and verifiable. So are the other white papers, but they are generalized discussions where RC provided more specificity with his conclusion.

I've never had a problem with smoking tweets and I set my systems up with clipping every time.

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Old 03-31-2013   #60
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

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Originally Posted by Randyman... View Post
That makes more sense IMO. So it's mainly that the full-range amp can keep increasing the HF content's power (since it is already relatively small compared to the bass) when the user is slamming the low-frequency spectrum into clipping. As long as the woofer can handle the total RMS heat of the clipped amp (generally a max of 2x clean rated RMS power), the woofer will keep on chugging just fine (but sound like ass). That combined with the small increase in harmonics due to clipping the woofer, and your tweets are toast just as JBL mentioned above...

I don't see how that's possible if your tweeters have proper filters in place. Again, if you are fully saturating the channels that feed your tweeters, creating an excessive clipped state, then this only seems to point to inadequate application.

If you're not clippin' ur just trippin'. lol

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Old 04-01-2013   #61
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Found this thread looking up "headroom". The concept just doesn't make sense to me. Aren't your speakers going to distort at the same wattage whether its from a 100 wpc amp or a 200 wpc amp? For example, if the speakers are rated at 60 wpc and they distort at 80 wpc, wouldn't a 200 wpc amp be pointless? I'm probably oversimplifying it or I just have it all wrong, but can someone please explain? I'd really like to know if I should buy that 200 wpc amp
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Old 04-01-2013   #62
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Buy the bigger amp because you can, because you won't be satisfied until you have seen the results for yourself, because you will trade speakers like underwear sooner or later and having more power means you can try a larger variety of speakers.

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Old 04-01-2013   #63
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

I'd like to bring focus back to the article vs. the subtleties we're slowly introducing....

Quote:
you can never have too much power... ...Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers.
Obviously there's a lot of variables to mention, debate, or argue...but I don't see anything wrong with the conclusion?

Drive a small amp into clipping hoping for something amazing; well, you'll get something amazing I don't think it means just a little flicker either...I think it's talking about grandma's boy messing with his 16th birthday present.


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Old 04-01-2013   #64
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I thought the variables was plain to see, just that some went on a tangent which diverted the flow of things. Basically, you're better off with a bigger amp under control than a smaller amp driven beyond it's limits given that it's clipped power is still enough to overdrive the speaker. Correct?

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Old 04-01-2013   #65
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If, and only if, the clipped signal has too much power for the driver in question. Otherwise clipping, other than sounding bad, won't make a difference.

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Old 04-01-2013   #66
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If, and only if, the clipped signal has too much power for the driver in question. Otherwise clipping, other than sounding bad, won't make a difference.
That's what I gathered. Then filtering (active/passive) became a part of the equation, but it still makes sense.

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Old 04-01-2013   #67
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

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Obviously there's a lot of variables to mention, debate, or argue...but I don't see anything wrong with the conclusion?
You need to read the thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 04-01-2013   #68
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Quote:
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Buy the bigger amp because you can, because you won't be satisfied until you have seen the results for yourself, because you will trade speakers like underwear sooner or later and having more power means you can try a larger variety of speakers.
My thinking is inline with yours. A larger amp leaves room to grow and it isn't going to damage anything is you use restraint. I'd rather have clean sound than have an amp that is straining and starts to sound harsh when it is reaching its limit. Even though the average power being used isn't much, the peaks in music can be many times greater. As an example, the LED meters on my home reciever go to 200 watts. If I have it cranked up pretty good, the average power being used may only be a few watts, but the 200 watt lights flicker from time to time.
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Old 04-01-2013   #69
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Everyone wants amps that are a bazillion watts, have small footprints, cost only a few bucks, and don't draw any current from the electrical system. But that doesn't really help anyone make decisions about what to buy. The power discussion is VERY relevant. Because the reality is that most people *DO* clip some of their channels some of the time, so it's important to know what it means and whether it's important to spend extra and dedicate more space to other/bigger amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 04-01-2013   #70
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
Everyone wants amps that are a bazillion watts, have small footprints, cost only a few bucks, and don't draw any current from the electrical system. But that doesn't really help anyone make decisions about what to buy. The power discussion is VERY relevant. Because the reality is that most people *DO* clip some of their channels some of the time, so it's important to know what it means and whether it's important to spend extra and dedicate more space to other/bigger amps.
That's what I'm saying. If your speakers clip at 80 wpc then won't a 100 wpc amp suffice? Wouldn't a 200 wpc amp be wasted? Obviously there's the 'ability to change gear factor' to consider. But, what if you aren't going to change anything? Doesn't that make the "headroom" point mute?
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Old 04-01-2013   #71
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Yup, I agree. I also don't understand the people who change gear all the time. Either people are incredibly bored, or they're not doing it right the first time.

Quote:
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What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 04-01-2013   #72
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

its the "green is greener on the other side" syndrome. you have a nicely set up system but you just know that is you replace the tweeters with X brand it will sound 100x better.

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Old 04-01-2013   #73
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Or you could be like me and want a simple upgrade that has more flexibility and more power over dinosaur amps that are bulky and limited on power. But I suppose that doesn't put that in the constantly trading category...

However, I'm sure bad decisions as well as forum boners account for most. Heck it took me I don't know how many years to finally switch to an all class D setup while I've sat back and watch a lot of these guys go through them like soiled underwear.

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Old 04-01-2013   #74
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Ear View Post
That's what I'm saying. If your speakers clip at 80 wpc then won't a 100 wpc amp suffice? Wouldn't a 200 wpc amp be wasted? Obviously there's the 'ability to change gear factor' to consider. But, what if you aren't going to change anything? Doesn't that make the "headroom" point mute?
Speakers don't clip.

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Old 04-01-2013   #75
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Default Re: Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
Speakers don't clip.
Distort?
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