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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I tryed to remove the dash today. Gosh dam I ran into a problem that ruined my entire life .

I can't get the crash pad off!!!!
There's a big metal bar that runs the span of the dash and it has metal brackets welded to it all over that the crash pad acres to in lots of little places. To get it out the doors have to come off to get to the bolts in door jam and the ****ing motor has to be pulled to access the bolts in the engine bay!

I AM NOT going through all of that. I'm so discouraged right now. My only hope is to just take a air saw to the dash and cut. I am NOT doing that until I go to a junkyard and cut a dash out of a Fit to see what else is under there .

The good news is behind the factory tweeter is a gallon of room . I can fit almost any driver I want down there. And that's the spot that has the lowest PLD. If worst comes to worst I'll do under dash horns or do a square horn body , like my small set of jbl 1.6k horn bodies I have.

I can still do what I want it's just going to be a bigger PITA !
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Got the power plant today. Nice lookin alternator,
Again, Ron at quality power is awesome. He made it custom for my car, he made me a personalized hand drawn mounting instructions, custom brackets. Awesome packaging. There awesome to work with. Can't wait to do the install.

Also got the fit tinted , did some 18% all way around.







 

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Just got my Honda Fit , gonna do it up real purdy like and have some fun.

System will be:

Alpine double din with optical out (X008)

2 minidsp 2x4HDs optical input
2 Stevins Audio HLCDS
2 Stevins audio 8"
2 Beyma 10g40s (or Stevins audio 10s have to wait till there available to check its parameters)

1 Focal FPS 4160
2 focal FPS 3200
1 JLHD 1200/1 (eventually will be another focal amp)

1 18" B&C subwoofer

Its a 2012 , has 6700 miles, super clean and fresh for a sick build.
Been wanting one for a while when looking for the ultimate SQ car layout.

My goals are for it to image in both front seats.

I'm going to re-work the dash and cut the horns into the upper firewall right under the windshield. I'm also going to build a custom a pillar that allows 8" midrange to be mounted in the dash. The location for the 8" had a PLD just over 6". Where The horns will be I measure a PLD at just 4".


I'm going to do a subtub in the spare tire well for the 18" sub. And make it so I can run it either sealed/ported/IB. I'm going to make a port/vent that I can put a plug into, and make a plug on bottom of car that can be opened to vent out to atmosphere when I want to go IB.

The 10s will be in the footwells cut into the floor/firewall area and fiberglass enclosure that runs down the underside of the car and be sealed and have about/at least 1cu ft of airspace each

The amps will be mounted on a custom anorak that follows the back seat to its top, and will be floating so that I still have a trunk that is useable.

I am installing a high output internally regulated alternator. (270A)
There will also be a second battery on a custom bracket in the engine bay.

Feel free to chat, definitely intrested in any ideas for the build.

The bucket,

[img=http://s32.postimg.org/v0n7fhqvl/image.jpg]

[img=http://s32.postimg.org/qax9qvzv5/image.jpg]
I'll refer you to your own post and Eric's response.
Horns are intended to be listened to off axis. VERY Few cars have pulled off horns in the dash with any real success of the car actually sounding good.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/270922-crossfire-angle.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
I'll refer you to your own post and Eric's response.
Horns are intended to be listened to off axis. VERY Few cars have pulled off horns in the dash with any real success of the car actually sounding good.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/270922-crossfire-angle.html
Well hopefully I'm one of the few. I'm doing it ! :) and how many of the ones that did try it point the horn streight up into the glass (YUK) that would be a trainwreck of arrival times imo. Not to mention all the other combfiltering problems that would be a issue as well. I'm not pointing them torwards the sky, that would shrink the stage to the car interior and cause so many bad problems. They will be firing straight forward like a underdash setup, and far back like your bmw was . Just up a little higher so the HF isn't buried into my legs.

I have been spending months playing with them on and off axis, preparing for this , in that thread Eric gave me some very key info as to understanding how it all works. Comparing what Eric said and what I have listened to I my own tests, I think I'll be successful. I will have a 4" PLD from either seat from head rest to motor. The horns will not at all be up close and in your face. The mounting is going to go straight forward and relitive to head position the horns will be about as high as your chest. So they will be relatively low , thus making them in-between off axis and off axis. At a distance of 44" driver and 49" passanger ( from driver seat) and 42" passanger and 47" driver (from passanger seat) I think it should do very very well. ( so wierd how un-symmetrical a car is, driver seat is more in middle of car and passanger seat is very close to passanger door panel, they definitely gave the driver more room)

The problem in my tests has been mouth termination at crossover. I can definitely hear the air break around 1k, subsequently where the horn size it self is at its absolute lowest point (minis) above 1k it's fine. I wasn't able to simulate this car and the termination ( obviously I haven't made the cuts yet) but if I keep the crossover above 1k it shouldn't be a issue. Although I'm banking that the windshield will help terminate the horn very well. The glass is flat and has no concave shape to it at all, that should help tremendously for combfiltering and such .

In my tests I really wanted to know at what point on the horn the energy is thrown out from the horn the strongest, I want to further test that so I can possibly get the correct Angle (if any) to the horn when I mount them. I think I'm just going to have to see how it works out when time comes. Based on what Eric has said, the strongest point should be in the area right at the opposite listeners head area. I used a yard stick and followed the shape of the horn right at the flare about 2" away from the edge of mouth, and it points to that spot in car. So, hopefully it is right. I also took my rta and put a 1.6k/3k/5k/ sine wave and measured spl as I slowly moved mic about 6" in front of mouth of horn and watched for where the highest spl was as I moved the mic from side to side in front of the horn. I also tryed some the same thing off axis slightly. I got a 6db gain on the sides of the horn compared to directly in front of it .

I think I'm going to have to worst case add some foam around the mouth of horn where it terminates . Just to get some of the energy calmed a bit. And have some foam paneling on the bottom 3" of the windshield all the way across. As well as some foam on the a pillars ,

So, yeah . I totally get what your saying. The horns ARE meant to be played off axis. And I agree , so I'm mounting them off axis, just not very far off axis, and definitely not below the dash.

If its dismal failure I will be the first to admit it and I'll simply change to a diffrent horn, like a 4"x4" jbl. Or a 10"x2" selinium, on the contrary I think it's going to work out very good. Eric's horns still toss energy to other side on axis, and they still sound good on axis. They just work remarkably well off axis. I just need to worry now about what to do with all that off axis energy that smashes into the windshield. I'm pretty sure a 10" foam pad should do the trick pretty good.

Why not just use a diffrent horn all together? One that is made to be on axis? Well that's a good question, I just can't find one the sounds as good as Eric's horn in a car on axis. I have about 10 different types of horns or waveguides. And IMHO, Eric's horns still paint a more realistic stage on axis as a selinium or a jbl or a peavy horn can.

The biggest problem with Eric's horns on axis is PLD and Eric even said it himself and I absolutely agree with him while heartily, PLD has to be low low to get it to work right on axis. In my Hyundai I had a 14"PLD, I had FIR processing and gobs of shelving eq on the right horn just to tame its output. The right horn was further away but louder than the driver side by 10db. And it was wierd, it normalized under 2khz, I had to do a shelving eq centered at 1600hz and bring down the right side so much to get it to sound correct. It worked , but the problem was the horns were too close to the listener and a artifact of it again was poor PLD.

Getting some distance between the listener and the horns allows the opposite energy to get to both ears in correct time so It can work the right way based on the horns shape. I think it's the ITD/IID stuff at play that makes them work so good but I'm not sure. I'm not a hearing expert, but I am a thinker. :)

So, I'm not sure if you were trying to reccomend I not do it , or were just warning me about there off axis inherent design, however I assure you it can work good. Definitely nothing I would recommend to someone to do, because these horns are not meant to be on axis, and again I'm not using them on axis. At least not completely. :) :) :)


Think about the space you listen in, think about it more as space rather a car interior , now use why you know about speaker behavior and think it out.

If a horn controls the pattern of the dispersion off axis a certian way that is desirable, who says you have to stick it under the dash? Well the manufacturer reccomends it yes, but why? Because that's the spot in a car interior that is off axis, what if it was mounted directly in front of you and the moth of the horn was pointing to the floor? Well , it would control the pattern the same as it would mounted under the dash right? Yes, that part dosent change , you would have to completely remove the dash all together for that to work, however if your just far enough off axis for the pattern control to work our beneficially and the source of the sound is in a desired location, why would it work? The only thing I can come up with is off axis reflection, that can be controlled in HF pretty easily with dampening.

By the end of it I may have a completely custom horn like some have done, but maybe not. Well see. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Nice find, thank you! I haven't read that thread, however even not reading these responces tells me I have the right approach with the treatments and placement

If you can couple the horn with the windshield and then treat the top of the dash with proper sound absorption foam to prevent compound reflections it should work excellent.

Eric
:p
Poor PLD (path length difference) so it would only work for single seat and the dispersion pattern of the under dash horns that makes them work well in a reflective environment will only work mounted horizontal.

To sum up, wont work well at all.

Eric
Again, that truck had a setup much like my santafe did. Very close in proximity, can only get to sound really good in one seat with gobs of dsp .

I'm going to have a cream puff for PLD. At least I hope so :D :)

On pats thread you have been against upper dash mounting as well, which I agree with as well . I'm against it for 90% of cars that a underdash is better suited. My santafe underdash arrangement was horrible, nothing could get them to sound right. I sat too far upright and the underdash was too far forward meaning my legs were inches from underdash.

The FIt I can do underdash pretty good, I sit pretty low, I probably will try it before I go chopping things up, but I know I'll end up with the up top. :)
Call me crazy but I like it .
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Got most of the CLD installed. Just that alone made a huge difference, tomorrow I do closed cell foam , MLV, and thick padding . The stock padding I decided to leave in contrary to what SDS (sound deadener showdown) reccomends. I think they might want you to just use and buy more of there material, maybe some cars stock padding isn't good, the stock padding in the fit is very dense and thick. I kept it in just skipping the thick padding step in those areas. In fact the stock padding seems a bit better than the SDS stuff, whatever , it's in there.

Also got some wiring pulled to the back. Ran OFC speaker wire , three runs to the front. I used electrical tape around the runs with black loom on top of that. Just to match the factory runs . The Honda loom is more grey than black , but at least it's the same type of insulation.

On the rcas I taped and loomed all 4 runs in one bundle. Ran a remote and source ground wire as well.

The 0ga stinger OFC I did not use tape on, just black loom on top of it. I thought it was cleaner that way so went with it.


The spare tire well is very shallow, I was wanting to start fab on that and get some glass down. I think I'm going to take the car to a buddy that welds airplanes. I think he has some engineering expertise and want to know if he can build a metal cage that is like a strut brace bar but for under the car. The spare tire well under the car has structural frame beams that connect the main car beams together in the back. If I cut out the spare tire well to make it deeper , I think the structure will be compermised , so I'm going to have to weld some beams in/under the lowered spare tire well.

Joy, I wasn't expecting to have to do that, but I definitely want some kind of trunk left , and want to keep weight down. And I still want me triple configuration enclosure for the sub.
 

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Got most of the CLD installed. Just that alone made a huge difference, tomorrow I do closed cell foam , MLV, and thick padding . The stock padding I decided to leave in contrary to what SDS (sound deadener showdown) reccomends. I think they might want you to just use and buy more of there material, maybe some cars stock padding isn't good, the stock padding in the fit is very dense and thick. I kept it in just skipping the thick padding step in those areas. In fact the stock padding seems a bit better than the SDS stuff, whatever , it's in there.

Also got some wiring pulled to the back. Ran OFC speaker wire , three runs to the front. I used electrical tape around the runs with black loom on top of that. Just to match the factory runs . The Honda loom is more grey than black , but at least it's the same type of insulation.

On the rcas I taped and loomed all 4 runs in one bundle. Ran a remote and source ground wire as well.

The 0ga stinger OFC I did not use tape on, just black loom on top of it. I thought it was cleaner that way so went with it.


The spare tire well is very shallow, I was wanting to start fab on that and get some glass down. I think I'm going to take the car to a buddy that welds airplanes. I think he has some engineering expertise and want to know if he can build a metal cage that is like a strut brace bar but for under the car. The spare tire well under the car has structural frame beams that connect the main car beams together in the back. If I cut out the spare tire well to make it deeper , I think the structure will be compermised , so I'm going to have to weld some beams in/under the lowered spare tire well.

Joy, I wasn't expecting to have to do that, but I definitely want some kind of trunk left , and want to keep weight down. And I still want me triple configuration enclosure for the sub.
I had a hell of a time getting mlv to fit in my door. Eventually gave up and ripped it out when the door panel wouldnt fit on properly anymore. So be very careful and tedious about how you get it on there. The velcro stickies add thickness as well and after they are on for awhile. They dont like to come off.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I had a hell of a time getting mlv to fit in my door. Eventually gave up and ripped it out when the door panel wouldnt fit on properly anymore. So be very careful and tedious about how you get it on there. The velcro stickies add thickness as well and after they are on for awhile. They dont like to come off.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
dood you ain't kiddin, the ram I did ( http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nstall-gallery/227282-2015-ram-build-log.html ) was a total horror to do. I spent the better part of a week on it ( the sound treatments) and have been dreading doing it in mine.

In fact the gent that owns the ram hook me up with all his left over SDS materials , totally enough to do my car. He's such a good dood , I'm so thankful for that.

But yeah, the fit doors are tiney and I'm not at all looking forward to doing it .
Being I'm not putting speakers in the doors tho , I think I'm going to use as much stuffing that will fit in there without the pannel pops coming un-snapped :D lol :)
 

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dood you ain't kiddin, the ram I did ( http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nstall-gallery/227282-2015-ram-build-log.html ) was a total horror to do. I spent the better part of a week on it and have been dreading doing it in mine.

In fact the gent that owns the ram hook me up with all his left over SDS materials , totally enough to do my car. He's such a good dood , I'm so thankful for that.

But yeah, the fit doors are tiney and I'm not at all looking forward to doing it .
Being I'm not putting speakers in the doors tho , I think I'm going to use as much stuffing that will fit in there without the pannel pops coming un-snapped :D lol :)
Id like to try filling my doors with expanding foam. I wonder how well that would block sound.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
Id like to try filling my doors with expanding foam. I wonder how well that would block sound.
Minus the Windows not being able to go up/down I bet it would work killer!

Ok I was kidding, I know what you meant :D

There are factory foam blocks in a lot of cars that feel just like dryed expansion foam.

:scratch head: I think your on to something
 

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Minus the Windows not being able to go up/down I bet it would work killer!

Ok I was kidding, I know what you meant :D

There are factory foam blocks in a lot of cars that feel just like dryer expansion foam.

:scratch head: I think your on to something
Its to stiffen the panel against the metal. I feel like the mlv method only works on specific cars. It has to be an all or nothing treatment too. Sound is like water. It can be loud through even a small hole.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Its to stiffen the panel against the metal. I feel like the mlv method only works on specific cars. It has to be an all or nothing treatment too. Sound is like water. It can be loud through even a small hole.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
That's so true , I had a customer in a older f150 come back to the shop complaining that the engine seemed louder, she thought we cut a big hole in the firewall, after inspecting the truck, the factory unused grommet we poked the power wire through came un-seated somehow. So a 1" hole was now exposed to the inside of the car, right behind it was the exhaust manifold granted , but still , a flimsy thin plastic grommet kept SOOOOOOO much sound from coming in the car.

I was mystified that she was able to hear it because to me it seemed so minor, but she pointed the sound out and she was right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Starting my test placements today. Hooked up my handy dandy 12 yr old Kenwood amp I modded. Sick tiny little amp btw.

Put some very nice 4"/1" computer speakers in my desired locations and starting testing.

For where I want to put my midrange I have a PLD of 6". From 350hz-and up I don't need any TA to get a nicely centered image, under 350hz it's hard to tell. It's not totally clear and sorta muffled. I need my dash mat to show up and some treatments to really tell .

So far so good. It's going to work, I'm really hoping the 250-350hz range works out that could really smear the image for both seats if it's not done just right.

I've been on a anti-time alignment kick, it seems to really destroy stage width in a hurry and causes nothing but problems. I'm hoping to just use TA just between drivers on the same side and zero TA against drivers on opposite side.

Found the cars dip today also. Looks to be centered about 390hz. Hopefully I can work placement angles enough so cancelation from side to side is minimized. I know there won't me a whole lot I can do, but being at that frequency it won't matter a whole lot where the speaker is "aimed" it will matter in the speakers upper range. I'm going to have to try a few diffrent aiming spots to try to get the suck out reduced while maintaining proper pattern coverage throughout the drivers bandwidth. Something tells me I'm going to have to make a compermise.

I have about 45degrees total positioning adjustments to play with and still have the install look good and not behave something different from either seat.

Anyway. Getting excited to start the fab. Also not excited. It's going to be a crap load of work.

Does anyone know where I might get the braided loom? I really want to use that. I want red and black. I need 0ga , 10ga, and 16ga sizes. Or whatever . I want to do all my underhood and speaker runs with it.
 
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