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Discussion Starter #661
So tonight in prep for my kicks, I did what I learned in a2tb a long time ago with kicks

I took my 6g40nds and put them on a plate baffle and set them in my kicks , set a crossover to my horn and no TA no EQ no fir no nothing. And moved them in different positions until the psychoacoustic image appears where and how I want it.

And for the record STEVE YOUNWERE RIGHT DAMMIT! Lol

It sounds better with them in kicks not in middle of floor board firewall
It’s wider for sure and the acoustic center is much better with horn

And to my dismay I have an image with no TA
It is best with no toe in and no pointing up. Just firing straight forward directly under horn
 

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Discussion Starter #662
Got the rings started for kicks
I just got a really bad ass router kit it’s like 300pcs
Has jigs , all kinds of rounds and bits and a plexiglass jig strap

Out of all that (it’s a 1600$ kit) I didn’t have room to do another shape but plain old round
Without it getting really BIG and tumorous.

So I’m doing a sandwich jig of mdf and this high grade HDPE (I don’t think it’s hdpe tho it’s way harder) but it’s 5/8” thick and the kick I’m cutting part of the floor out to flush the 2118h in the floor , I’m going to glass onto the stock kick panel and wrap the whole thing as one piece ...... I’m going to do 6 layers of glass and I got from my buddy a two ply sandwich butyl and urethane Mat that goes on like dynamat and put that in between a couple layers of fiberglass. I should be able to get the .5 ft.³ that the jbl wants. And if it rings like teenage girls phone I have a area where I can pre install a vent to try aperoiodic
Or vent to outside or ported.

I got to say , I just plugged them in on the floor burned with a towel around the back and verified my positioning with the 2118h and I fell completely into gloryhole no eq no ta
Jimminy Christmas I forgot how well this driver performs in the midrange .

This is exactly what the fit needed.

I turned the 6nd430 that’s in the door to play 80- LR4 to 200 LR4 and the 2118h at 200 LR4
to 900 with a 1 oactave overlapping fir filter
The 6nd430 kinda pounds now in the door with the 2118h in kick. Screwed with delay between them a couple points. So the 10s behind the seat came out (FINALLY YAE)


The 2118h definitely behaves differently than the 6g40 glad I checked , it wants a little toe in to get a good image to emerge. But not much and I’m going to build kicks with very little tow in but just enough to get into the coverage angle on both sides for both seats.

So I’ll be making my little hot glue gun get a workout with re ajust peg supports on mold and listen and make sure I get it right before I lay glass over ring


After driving home with them just sitting on floor with no eq and Dirac in bypass mode and that strong ass midrange that just does not give up just singin I’ve decided to turn the Dirac into a opendrc and use it dedicated on sub where I’ll have enough fir to kill all the GD from sub completely.


If I have time I’m going to put the 6nd430 in sealed boxes in the door, I will have to model it and make sure fb isn’t too high and that I can damp the enclosure enough to get it to play right. We’ll see , I don’t like ringing but like transients, I don’t want more midbass I just want more transient responce and a little better power handling out of the 6nd430 under 100hz





 

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Nothing to add, just wanted to say I’m loving the build
 

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Discussion Starter #665
Got both sides bases glassed

Stayed up till 2am with towels around the 2118hs listening and measuring

Had to crunch some numbers (which I sick at had my brother in law help me)

Did the 1/4 and 1/2 wave calculations, got the aiming nailed down and the crossover figured out.

With little tow in it sounded better and was wider (I think Steve got me worried about being wide) however a 4db difference from left and 3db difference from right.

Had to toe in quite a bit , got the left down to 2 and the right down to 1db , sine swept spl 200-1khz

The imaging is great in both seats. Have an acoustical offset of .33ms between horn and 2118h

Imaging is high at top of dash, L LC C RC R are excellent in driver seat and passenger seat is R R C LC L I am 99% sure it’s the tiny passenger compartment and the seat is over to right quite a bit , they clearly gave driver more room. But hey I’m happy center is in same spot as driver and both sides imaging good, have good depth and height and width.

Crossed the doors at 60bw24 and 227LR4 and pushed the delay back about a ms to align the bass frequencies with the 2118h bass rolloff , I’ll play fir and get it super dialed in later

Tomorrow I glass the tops and stretch vynil and Monday make the grills
 

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Discussion Starter #666
My woodshop is beat up , I do a lot a lot of custom work , there’s glue and crap all over everywhere ( I wish we had a glue table ) the shop is too small for the volume we do.

But I’m going to rebuild the wood room soon and do two more routers and re do the table
 

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Discussion Starter #667
So got kicks glassed and ran impedance test on the kicks
And it was ugly. So , I started drilling holes

And another sweep. Still ugly

And more holes

Still ugly

And more and more and more holes

And finally now that the kickpannel looks like Swiss cheese the impedance is good and smooth.

The shape of the kick causing some nasty problems

When I had the 8s just sitting on floor with a towel around them it was excellent

Having the 8 flushed in makes it have a big problem

So I just drilled about 10 2” holes all over my new kicks

They sounded so superb just resting with a towel around them, the kicks
Have big issues , but now they sound superb.

Even tho it’s completely a 1st order enclosure now I definitely can’t vynil them

So I’m going to shop for an acoustical fabric that looks good and will sorta breathe
So the holes can breathe a little , maybe a tweed or something nice I’ll look


The physical shape of the kicks in the 100-300hz range make them sound hollow

The holes definitely helped but still hallow and I knew I could fix it with fir
And it worked , pulled the phase back 10 degrees at 227 Q2 and re measured and listen
And it’s bad ass again.

Having the 8 flushed into the kick made the air snap around 150hz in a bad way.
I made a set of rings to fill in the space and it’s smooth again.
Very strange.

When they were sitting in kick with no panel just a towel , I had them crossed at 130 and I insisted on keeping that crossover and same sound as if it’s enclosureless .....I achieved it.

So the kickpanel is just a frame for a shape now it has no walls, just enough shape for a fabric to follow and look good.

Maybe suede with the backing peeled off ......maybe a tweed, or velour or something.

What’s weird is even with 10 2” holes drilled all over the kick panel when music is playing even at low volume I can feel wind coming out of all the holes,


The 2118h sounds so so superb now, only eq is -2db at 346 Q1.4 that’s it and 346 is a room mode , something about the backwave being able to play also is making it so much better. Like canceling all the issues with the car. I can hear the speaker not the car it’s great.

Got to say tho. Having fiir and rephase is so handy for that last little bit.

Tomorrow it gets the finish work. And it should look pretty sexy
 

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Discussion Starter #668
And it imaging on both sides is to die for , seriously.

Center comes in so fuckin dam strong on both sides I was very surprised
Usually with kicks got to add .5ms to get this for one side , it’s nice.

No ringing what so ever, plays to 130 (LR4) so to 200 at full power (exactly what a 2118 is made to do best) .


There’s no way I’m doing boxes in my doors HAHAHA. That would sound like shit man
Ever single time I try to put a front stage speaker in some type of enclosure it rings and is so horribly colored. No thanks. I just had to remind myself tonight what a totally joke it is to try to do enclosures for midbass.

What I am going to do is make the 6Nd430 have a solid 1/2” aluminum mount tho with dynamat and still trick out the door panel so it’s not playing behind the gay factory grill.


We’ll see how tired I am after I finish my kicks
 

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Discussion Starter #669
So much for making a cut in the floor and making .5cu ft and
A sealed box or venting

That did not work.

OTOH , the kick pods will work this way.
Completely unexpected, but hey got to do what I got to do


You might think this looks strange , but believe me this sounds excellent doing it like this

I’ve resourced as many things as I can for this build and did all the measurements and techniques I could think of to get these to work the best

You might think it dosent play very low and that’s the point , I didn’t want any colorations to the sound especially under 400hz ....

So here’s the Swiss cheese






 

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Hey Andy,

It looks like the "swiss cheese" ended up being glassed over/covered and the back side of the kick pod was opened up significantly, firing into carpet.
Am I seeing this correctly?

Cheers!
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #673 (Edited)
Hey Andy,

It looks like the "swiss cheese" ended up being glassed over/covered and the back side of the kick pod was opened up significantly, firing into carpet.
Am I seeing this correctly?

Cheers!
Charles

Charles

Yeah I wanted to do vynil but I ended up getting some stretchy suede
And just wrapped them holes and all with suede

It’s stretched tight so you can’t see the circles through it at all
And painted it black inside and out as well
I’ve never seen this technique but it works for my car


Went from a car that needed gobs and gobs of EQ and a room correction unit plus a whole bunch of all pass filters and fir filters just to sound good and never got very loud because of all the eq and stuff
To a car that has virtually no eq , no room correction, no time alignment and gets super loud and sounds great.

So weird to know my car can sound good finally without having to find a dsp fix for everything

I’ve heard of ppl drilling a vent in a kickpod but a single vent just didn’t do it for me , I wanted all the ringing gone. I wouldn’t settle for anything else

Thanks man yeah it turned out really amazing sq for sure
 

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Charles



Yeah I wanted to do vynil but I ended up getting some stretchy suede

And just wrapped them holes and all with suede



It’s stretched tight so you can’t see the circles through it at all

And painted it black inside and out as well

I’ve never seen this technique but it works for my car





Went from a car that needed gobs and gobs of EQ and a room correction unit plus a whole bunch of all pass filters and fir filters just to sound good and never got very loud because of all the eq and stuff

To a car that has virtually no eq , no room correction, no time alignment and gets super loud and sounds great.



So weird to know my car can sound good finally without having to find a dsp fix for everything



I’ve heard of ppl drilling a vent in a kickpod but a single vent just didn’t do it for me , I wanted all the ringing gone. I wouldn’t settle for anything else



Thanks man yeah it turned out really amazing sq for sure


Man this awesome work! I'm glad to know
Your just a short drive north I'd love to be able to hear this. I got to hear Arron's samari the other day and it was sweet! He mentioned he got some new driver to try from you

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #675
Man this awesome work! I'm glad to know
Your just a short drive north I'd love to be able to hear this. I got to hear Arron's samari the other day and it was sweet! He mentioned he got some new driver to try from you

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
thanks man, it’s finally becoming something. Still miles away from what I want it to be. I think I’m finally learning the last steps to a really awesome sounding car, should come up and Well do demos I want to check out your car also

Yeah Aaron’s samurai is awesome, I love that guy to death he’s such a good friend and kick ass installer

Yeah I lent him a really nice compression driver for his horns
I want to hear them. Last tome I tuned his car was in 2015 and now he is tuning and building some awesome cars, That dood is building quite the name for himself in Colorado.
 

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Discussion Starter #676 (Edited)
here's some measurements mounted in kicks
I just had to show these off...

This is a testament to being patient and spending the time to pre aim and measure kicks and build the kicks around what measured well and what sounded good with no compromises.. I can say the full 10 hours of testing before any glass was laid and the other 8 hours of correcting the kicks by drilling them until they measured the same and had no enclosure related issues. Time well spent and worth it, Ill never do pods or panels again without going though the painful efforts.

I used to build a panel so it looks as good as possible and just use dsp on any issues after the fact. This approach is much better. I can actually thank once again Erin H for the inspiration on doing that after reading his thread.

Its crazy how similar they are under 300Hz. but my car is like barley 9 inches wide (jk but its small) I think that's why they are so similar. Total of 4" PLD





 

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So with all this dirac experimenting you've done. What would your review of it be? Great for ppl not trying for crazy good systems but still great. Sometime akin to a new age ms8? Quick tune, easy to use but lack of dynamics that both you and Elgrosso heard. Something to use on say >500hz

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Yes definitely, I’ve used bondo , tape, whatever works and old holes gone



Yeah I’ve had hard luck getting the 2118 to go below 200hz at full power IB, the mb8 would work better but with the pr170mo I would even loook at maybe a even lower fs driver maybe one in the 50s to get down to 80 at full power with no enclosure.



The 2118 is one of the best midrange I’ve ever heard , man that thing just sings upwards 1.6k and has a sibilance that just hits the spot. As far as midbass duty it’s lacking (pretty badly) I have a set in my garage in .3 sealed and they play to 50 and sound really good, so if you can get .3 or so sealed it might work , but there’s better midbass Out there for 70-500hz



The mbx b&c looks really good , the mb8 is good as well , I would shoot for mid Q fs around 50 with sensitivity around 90db 1/w1m and something with not such a flimsy cone like the 2118
Thanks for the detailed response as usual Andy. I totally agree with the statement on 2118H lacking as pure midbass or even alone in a 2-way. It just can't hang down lower, even below 150-200hz as you said. I know they drop off quick below 130-140hz in my truck installed in typical IB, lower and forward in the doors. Both mine measure right at 4.9 ohms so they're getting nearly the full 150 (theoretical) watts.

I bought the PR170MO on a complete whim with no real plans for them. One of those "why not" buys. Having bought them, the only reason i an see me using them is for their (slightly) smaller size if I ever did do a kick install.

I still need to listen to you and just buy the MB8s but those darn 2206/2217s keep calling my name. Haha
 

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Discussion Starter #680
Thanks for the detailed response as usual Andy. I totally agree with the statement on 2118H lacking as pure midbass or even alone in a 2-way. It just can't hang down lower, even below 150-200hz as you said. I know they drop off quick below 130-140hz in my truck installed in typical IB, lower and forward in the doors. Both mine measure right at 4.9 ohms so they're getting nearly the full 150 (theoretical) watts.

I bought the PR170MO on a complete whim with no real plans for them. One of those "why not" buys. Having bought them, the only reason i an see me using them is for their (slightly) smaller size if I ever did do a kick install.

I still need to listen to you and just buy the MB8s but those darn 2206/2217s keep calling my name. Haha

I used to run the pr170 with the b&c10 and mini horns
It was deadly combo.

I crossed the pr170mo at 500 12db as recommended and it was nice

The pr170 does its best at500 crossing below made it sound weird and the GD was enormous for some reason. Could have been the pods I was using at the time (probably was)
 
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