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Discussion Starter · #941 ·
So it was edge diffraction you were talking about. And nope none, that I can hear anyway. I put my money on the inverted dome. Focal sorta through of that, but it makes these tweeters have different energy patterns at different axis es.

when I had it resting on the dash I had made a small wave guide for it, that was because it was reflecting off the windshield but that was also before I made these pods. These push the tweeters forward almost 5 inches from where I had them, that is a ton. Where they’re at now that problem is not a thing hence I incorporated that into my design. They originally wanted them tucked away in the corner, it didn’t work out.

I originally thought the same thing when I saw this 3” tweeter with a huge faceplate and no waveguide...

During my initial testing I realized that there is a little bit more energy directly on axis which usually is not the case usually you can get 10 to 15° before you start to lose energy. That’s why my drivers one is pointed directly at my left ear in the passenger one is pointed directly at my right ear... my pods have different angles, and that is part of the design because of this Tweeter.

these ones at a little bit strange in the fact that usually I would tip the left one in the same as it would make the left stage deeper because the right stage is a different path length. these ones not so much.

the other day you amd mic were like ganging up on me for an install I no longer have, although all the things that were trying to be discredited, I was like duh, just do this and that’s not an issue... nobody heard my reply, and it went completely ignored. I was the one who did upper horns and got them to work right. They just didn’t play that low. But having the mid right next door it was a non issue.

I took that as sorta intimidating. And there’s been a couple other times that I felt that they were just remarks made that were a little bit mean..and direction was pointed right at me. As if I was wrong.

I have been doing audio since most ppl were in diapers, I definitely like to break the rules, amd show it can be done sometimes.... because cars acoustics are freaky and somethings can be mitigated with dsp..... now days at least..... is it ideal , no. But can still have excellent sound quality and do things never before possible... yes there’s costs to this , for example if you want to know what’s really wrong with my install, my kick panels are too small and they’re vented into the sub dash. The vent tunes them at 111 Hz and they definitely have a ring to them that I have had to make an exotic SIR filter to get them to perform and sounds just as if they were in infinite baffle. But there was a cost again what did I pay for that?: I only get about 1/3 the output usable output then I would if I really did have infinite baffle. They don’t get loud. That sort of kind of brings into why I have two other sets of mid bass. So overall the system gets very loud, and the kick panels sure you make the stage extremely deep especially deep male vocals. They’re pushed way far back and I freaking love it!

The tweeter pods, they don’t have any diffraction problems, and like I said I’m pretty sure it’s part of the design of the dome. But I can’t honestly tell you why I don’t have that problem I just simply don’t

When I had the Stevens tweeters yes they did have better dispersion they had a little horn on the Tweeter. But I promise you the sound absolutely fantastic and I don’t localized them whatsoever
 

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Discussion Starter · #942 ·
Having a wide soundstage was not part of my design goal. It’s wide enough, my design goal was for it to sound like I have a set of bookshelves in front of me.. I want this sound to be coming from in front of me and I want all the instruments placed exactly where they’re supposed to be in the soundstage, with no errors in that aspect.

having the speakers up high in the door would’ve made a much wider soundstage and having them pointed at me more absolutely would’ve been way wider but that’s not what I’m wanting I want it to be easy to listen to, a simple left right and center and everything near field and for field to be easily identifiable

I am not after the immersive sound that is the opposite of my design goal
 

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Discussion Starter · #943 ·
These were my tweeters the last time i ran tweeters.

I bet that that sounded really good, although incorporating that to a mid range would’ve had more disastrous problems and worrying about a little bit of edge diffraction. There’s no way you were within a quarter wave to the mid.

I think that what made me mad is the way that you said your comment it came off like a little bit mean. it’s usually the one liners that people misunderstand

last week I got in an argument with Andy from audio frog, he tried using a one-liner on me and used the word wrong in his half sentence. it came off mean it came off that he was trying to pick a part what I said and neglected to read in the entirety of what I originally said and I ended up making him look stupid for saying that which I didn’t intend to do I don’t intend to do that to anybody, but I will absolutely stick up for some thing if I know it to be true. If I am unaware of some thing and I’m sticking up for it , then I’m simply unaware. But I think I have just enough experience now to not make myself look stupid because believe me I have many times on this form in the past many many many times
 

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Mic and I weren't ganging up on you. I'm just really lazy these days and I generally don't reply to an entire response. Or sometimes I'll ask a question or start a thread and let others discuss because I want to see what others say. You two are horn experts. I just asked and watched the pros talk. Not ignoring, just observing.

I'm glad those focals work out for you. I might try my hand at them one day.

Remember when I was cutting into my old Camry? When I had those crazy thick foam doors and dash mat made of 1" thick melamine foam and all the other acoustic treatments I made?

I did a ton of reading on reverb and decay rate on frequencies.(some of the Magic Bus stuff sounds so good because he got the decay rate of all his frequencies to be more in line with a larger room.) A ton of reading on initial and secondary reflections. Late reflections and how they give us depth which is what rear fill does.

Like I went hard on the complicated stuff and it really changed my mindset of how I view installs. I am alllll about integration with the body panels and smooth corners and avoiding reflections/diffractions.

I just see soo many really good installs and people just place their tweeters somewhere, do a round of sweeps, place it somewhere else. Do a round of sweeps. And then keep repeating it until they find a freq response that isn't absolutely atrocious from reflections.

I almost never see actual real waveguides tested or diffraction experiments tried. It's more , oh this position has the least amount of comb filtering. Guess I'll roll with that because I had a DSP.

I was trained on my car audio basics from a very old pro from the 80s so it's like INSTALL should be the absolute focus on sound quality and then let the DSP do the work after.

And honestly, it probably doesn't matter. Are some filters even audible on some freq? Maybe? Does diffraction matter in a car? Maybe. Is anything I'm anal about really matter? Maybe. Maybe not.

Also, I sat Brian Mitchell way far back because that's how people do it in competition. I don't listen that way and I'm pretty tall. I realized that being close to the dash let the horns load right and the stage truly does sound different closer than farther. It's just a horn thing.

But I do stand by my statement that the cars that beat me every year, generally sound worse. It's just how I feel.

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The Camry had really deep footwells. Like stupid deep. So I could move my seat back super far and it didn't change the dispersion pattern of the horns to my ears by THAT much. My current car is the exact opposite.

The only person I see who does waveguides is Patrick and he never finishes a build or competes so he's more of an interesting outlier.

There's just so much focus on Dirac and Helix and upmixing and cool tech on Diyma these days that I think some fundamentals and actual acoustic wave theories have been forgotten about.

But it's fine. Because I have plans :3

Also I get pretty mad at comps because we have ONE a year here in Oregon so I don't get much chance to iterate or try different things and see how they rate. So if I **** up. It matters

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Discussion Starter · #946 ·
Okay I love you again :)

so I totally agree! Placement is king over dsp! I’m allll about let’s do both!

I did kicks, I did do my homework and experimenting and trial and error. I did find what I am after , although the stevens components do sound better then the focal.... I’m just sayin. No joke either. The sa6 is a bad ass set.... the focal is good , very good and has unprecedented detail. Just doesn’t have that horn like sound, which we all know comes from efficiency and waveguides mostly and other speaker design aspects of course.

So I just thought you were being mean... sorry.... I love mic, he’s a frikkin stud. But he surely never heard my car with on dash horns and midbass on dash with it. It had excellent staging amd imaging. It had problems, yes, but it was an easy fix. I just didn’t get to use the horn where it’s fun.
It drives me nuts that he doesn’t acknowledge that. But it might be a thing about brand protection which I am all about with Eric’s stuff. I would never recommend using any of his products that way there not meant.... I’m just an oddball. So yeah , I can’t be mad at him for not acknowledge that.... so yeah I was left feeling like I was being ganged up on

You Camry was dope man.... I couldn’t believe the extent of what you did for sound. You inspired me a ton, I absolutely loved that car. And I didn’t have to listen to it to know it was bad ass..... I’ve done horns in a Camry and I know especially with Dirac ..... **** that was a bad ass car
 

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Discussion Starter · #947 ·
So just went on a listen...... the dash pods are definitely pushing on the 3.5 and horn loading them a little, it’s beneficial so far, it’s helping actually get things to move forward... just making things sound a little different, need to retune and accommodate for that change.

it’s sounding good.... the 1krange seems smoother. The tweeter pod is working great. I can hear it reacting on the back chamber.... back chamber is still too big .
 

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Discussion Starter · #949 ·
Got the tweeter back chamber super tiny now .... I filled the pod with resin all the way up to the back of the tweeter, so just the sides are the airspace... I stuffed with rock wool...... fs now 489..... f3 2226...

I can’t fill it anymore.... I’m going to have to use maybe modeling clay and stuff the sides a little

put the black rings back on Tweets also.... pic shows them off , I just was messing w them
 

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Alright. I've honestly never read this whole thread. Just small parts here and there. Tomorrow I'm gonna sit down and read it all. Anything you want me to keep in mind while I do? Loll

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Discussion Starter · #951 ·
Alright. I've honestly never read this whole thread. Just small parts here and there. Tomorrow I'm gonna sit down and read it all. Anything you want me to keep in mind while I do? Loll

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don’t read the whole thing there’s been a lot of evolution since this thread started
Lol

It goes back a few years and there’s a lot of stuff that’s incorrect, it’s just the last 12 months that really things have come together
 

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Discussion Starter · #952 ·
Did a full-blown retune.....

This time optimized my crossovers for the driver seat , got them flat at the seat not the speaker ....

fir works fine ..... for this location....

So far very good results

Almost ready to announce my TA thing... I will have to do it in a video
 

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Discussion Starter · #954 · (Edited)
Posting up my time alignment video it’s going to be embedded into the rephase video I’ll post in the rephrase thread in a little bit ,
It’s 7:20 PM mountain time right now and it’s uploading onto YouTube so give me till 9:30 PM mountain time and I’ll have it up

It’s the big reveal, get ready to change your systems radically... improve imaging and get rid of those cancellations and würd peaks in your midrange!

you definitely hate it when you have that one frequency that pulls your stage to one side or other ..... tired of your soundstage sounding like it’s 3” from your face?; then watch this video and get some ideas..... it’s absolutely contrary to what you’ve learned. It’s a spoiler to the technical video I’ll do.

cheers 🥂
 

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I get the TA thing if all the speakers are on the dash but what about 2 way (door mid and dash tweeter)?

Assume 3 way with mid and tweeter on dash would apply for your TA method.

When I use the tape measure I measure to my ears or headrest (near enough to ear) but not my nose, so will try further forward next time.


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Discussion Starter · #956 · (Edited)
I get the TA thing if all the speakers are on the dash but what about 2 way (door mid and dash tweeter)?

Assume 3 way with mid and tweeter on dash would apply for your TA method.

When I use the tape measure I measure to my ears or headrest (near enough to ear) but not my nose, so will try further forward next time.


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Dash and doors are different, but also how low is that mid playing.... a lot of things to try when setting up and listening to how well the crossovers are summing

but here’s the thing LF is so so so so so much more forgiving.... you can be entire milliseconds off and it still sounds great....

i haven’t found the exact number but I want to, it’s somewhere around the wavelength between 1k and 1.6k that things become much more loose under that frequencie.....

for example 2k is fairly long frequency when playing next to a tweeter. And that tweeter definitely plays into 2k audible.....

But you definitely want to do your doors separate with correct values, I’m just talking speakers that are already close together
 

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Posting up my time alignment video it’s going to be embedded into the rephase video I’ll post in the rephrase thread in a little bit ,
It’s 7:20 PM mountain time right now and it’s uploading onto YouTube so give me till 9:30 PM mountain time and I’ll have it up

It’s the big reveal, get ready to change your systems radically... improve imaging and get rid of those cancellations and würd peaks in your midrange!

you definitely hate it when you have that one frequency that pulls your stage to one side or other ..... tired of your soundstage sounding like it’s 3” from your face?; then watch this video and get some ideas..... it’s absolutely contrary to what you’ve learned. It’s a spoiler to the technical video I’ll do.

cheers 🥂
I'm excited to see this video! Where can we find it?
 
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