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Discussion Starter #1
I have a Mosconi Zero 3 for sub duty, and as of right now I have my old sub box from my 2014 Silverado installed in my 2019 Crew Cab running (2) Clarus 10" subs. I am wanting more output from my subs.

I need to have a new enclosure made so I can take advantage of the extra depth in the new Silverado Model. I wasn't planning on purchasing new subs for a while, but I came across two Illusion Audio 12XL's for $1000. They are "gently used" for about a month and come from a reputable seller. I can also get 2 "NEW" Audio Frog GB12's for about the same price. (This will include a warranty)

I am leaning towards the C12XL's because of the output ability, but I am not sure I would notice a large difference.
Do I go with 2 C12 XL's or 2 GB12's ported?

I know these two subs have been mentioned and compared here quite a bit, but for "roughly" the same price, which would you chose and why?
 

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The GB12 is a phenomenal sounding subwoofer. I have just one in a ported box and it’s output is really really good. If you can get the GB12 with warranty than that to me is a no brained. I’ve also had a listen to a professionally installed and tuned setup with a single 10” Illusion Audio subwoofer in the passenger kick space and I would say you couldn't go wrong with Illusion Audio either. I’m leaning towards the GB12 though.
 

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The GB12 is more sensitive and they have about the same excursion capability with the same recommended power. So the GB12 should just get a little louder. Add in that it is cheaper and more readily available, the GB12 seems like the easy choice.
 

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I've owned a single C10XL and now a GB12. I know this isn't the same comparison, given my Illusion was only a 10". However, based on my experience and considering the size difference into the comparison, I'd lean toward the Audiofrog. Both of these lines are capable of low-distortion, while still offering a substantial amount of output. I personally feel like the GB-line is less finicky to enclosure size/type. The GB's also have a very high sensitivity, which I tend to prefer.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Perfect, Audiofrog it is!!
 

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2 GB12s will definitely put a big smile on your face...
 

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Wait till you put that mmats on them. Then you will have a really big smile on your face.
Oh yeah! It's already on them and it's night and day, even with gain still at lowest!
 

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Just a question, please don’t attack me or take this the wrong way. What’s the drawbacks of the xl12 that makes it inferior to the gb12? Just curious as I’ve heard them twice and in both occasions they were spectacular, so much that I have them on my short list of favorite 12”. Then again it might be my taste for sound as I also like 12w6’s which for almost everyone is the worst.
 

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I’m one of those that feel GOOD subwoofer drivers will sound more similar than different as their job is to reproduce bass waves faithfully. Since all of the drivers you mentioned are good drivers, they should sound the same when not driven hard. So then we have to look at the specs to see where one might have an advantage over another. As I mentioned in my response above, the GB12 is more sensitive than the C12XL so it will get a little louder. Other than that, I’d say the drivers are more similar than different.

I will also say where drivers are able to separate themselves is their distortion characteristics when driven near their limits. But for me, if I’m nearing those limits, I need more subwoofer capability as I don’t want to hear any distortion from my subs.
 

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I've heard both (and use a pair of Raven 10XLs in my car). I think the only advantages I would give to the Audiofrog GB12 over the C12XL are the price and a slight nod in efficiency. These are both exceptionally nice subwoofers. No compromise in the SQ department and plenty of output for most people.
 

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I’m one of those that feel GOOD subwoofer drivers will sound more similar than different as their job is to reproduce bass waves faithfully. Since all of the drivers you mentioned are good drivers, they should sound the same when not driven hard. So then we have to look at the specs to see where one might have an advantage over another. As I mentioned in my response above, the GB12 is more sensitive than the C12XL so it will get a little louder. Other than that, I’d say the drivers are more similar than different.

I will also say where drivers are able to separate themselves is their distortion characteristics when driven near their limits. But for me, if I’m nearing those limits, I need more subwoofer capability as I don’t want to hear any distortion from my subs.
More efficient? Yes. Louder? Not necessarily. It will take more power, but the C12XL models as getting louder than the GB12. I guess that 0.4mm of extra xmax makes a difference. ;)

The differences in output we are talking about are minute though, and really negligible in an SQ install. (Less than 1dB negligible.) Running a simulation in a typical 1cf sealed enclosure, we're talking under 25% more power on the C12XL to make that happen. Given like for like power, the disparity between the two drivers is even smaller. (Less than 0.25dB).

So, in this particular case, I would say the efficiency difference between these two subwoofers isn't really a reason to choose on over the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
How much would the simulation change with it being a ported box for both subs?
I've never run a ported enclosure in my truck and really wanting to take advantage of the extra depth in the new GM trucks.

The Audiofrog depth is roughly 6.67" whereas the Illusion C12Xl is 6.14"

Will there be much of a difference between two ported vs two sealed?
 

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Just a question, please don’t attack me or take this the wrong way. What’s the drawbacks of the xl12 that makes it inferior to the gb12? Just curious as I’ve heard them twice and in both occasions they were spectacular, so much that I have them on my short list of favorite 12”. Then again it might be my taste for sound as I also like 12w6’s which for almost everyone is the worst.
Subwoofers are actually pretty easy. Displacement is King. We are terrible at hearing distortion at low frequencies, so most subwoofers (like dgage said) are basically the same when you compare them to another of similar displacement. There are differences, I'm not saying that they are all created equally, but put in an optimal enclosure the difference between one sub and another is much smaller than the differences in say a high end tweeter, and a budget tweeter.

Audio Frog is the "it" brand right now. They have proven to make speakers that measure well objectively, and they are specifically designed to be used in a car. There are plenty of other excellent speakers available that are just as good, but AF is the brand getting the attention these days. The illusion audio subs will almost certainly sound just as good, assuming the enclosure is optimized for them.
 

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More efficient? Yes. Louder? Not necessarily. It will take more power, but the C12XL models as getting louder than the GB12. I guess that 0.4mm of extra xmax makes a difference. ;)

The differences in output we are talking about are minute though, and really negligible in an SQ install. (Less than 1dB negligible.) Running a simulation in a typical 1cf sealed enclosure, we're talking under 25% more power on the C12XL to make that happen. Given like for like power, the disparity between the two drivers is even smaller. (Less than 0.25dB).

So, in this particular case, I would say the efficiency difference between these two subwoofers isn't really a reason to choose on over the other.
You might want to look at the specs again because there is a big difference in sensitivity. And since their recommended power ratings are the same and as you said, excursion (and displacement) is basically the same, the AF will be LOUDER.

Audiofrog GB12D2 sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m): 95 dB
Illusion Audio C12XL (D2) sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m): 87.4 dB

It would be a different story if one sub had greater RATED power rating or excursion but in this case, the sensitivity is the main differentiator. Oh, and cost and availability. And if you want to make the argument the C12XL can take more power, I’m sure the same argument could be made for the GB12, which is why I focused on rated power.

i think they are both good subs and I don’t have a dog in the fight as I use different subs. I’m just pointing out the differentiators, which in this case is pretty markedly to the AF side In this case.
 

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How much would the simulation change with it being a ported box for both subs?
I've never run a ported enclosure in my truck and really wanting to take advantage of the extra depth in the new GM trucks.

The Audiofrog depth is roughly 6.67" whereas the Illusion C12Xl is 6.14"

Will there be much of a difference between two ported vs two sealed?
There will be a noticeable difference between two of the same subwoofers in a sealed enclosure vs the same two subwoofers in a vented enclosure. There will be much less of a difference between an Illusion C12XL and Audiofrog GB12 in the same enclosure (sealed or vented). Vented will gain output over sealed, but if you use the (Audiofrog) recommended 1.5cf @ 33Hz tuning, you will lose output the very lowest frequencies (20-25Hz) based on the need for a subsonic filter. The vented enclosure will also have less distortion around tuning (+/-1/2 octave?) due to less excursion, but there will be added group delay.

And to clarify my previous statements, I was comparing the GB12 D2 to the C12XL. The GB12 D4 does have more Xmax (19mm vs 18mm & 17.6mm), but does require more power to reach Xmax. It is similar to the C12XL in that specific aspect. Again, output differences between the three subwoofers would be negligible.
 

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You might want to look at the specs again because there is a big difference in sensitivity. And since their recommended power ratings are the same and as you said, excursion (and displacement) is basically the same, the AF will be LOUDER.

Audiofrog GB12D2 sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m): 95 dB
Illusion Audio C12XL (D2) sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m): 87.4 dB

It would be a different story if one sub had greater RATED power rating or excursion but in this case, the sensitivity is the main differentiator. Oh, and cost and availability. And if you want to make the argument the C12XL can take more power, I’m sure the same argument could be made for the GB12, which is why I focused on rated power.

i think they are both good subs and I don’t have a dog in the fight as I use different subs. I’m just pointing out the differentiators, which in this case is pretty markedly to the AF side In this case.
I want to be clear, that my post wasn't really intended to be contradictory or confrontational. I know that I can come off that way sometimes. And sometimes, it is intentional. :D And even though I run the Raven variant of the Illusion sub, I have no dog in this fight either. I would have no qualms about running Audiofrog gear.

Seriously though, I did double check all of my numbers. When I enter T/S parameters into WinISD, there are some parameters that I allow the software to auto-calculate. This has proven very helpful in many cases when manufacturers provide information that ends up generating a "bust" in the software. (This has never been the case for Audiofrog, Illusion, or most reputable brands.) Sensitivity is one of those parameters that I allow the software to auto calculate. Listed below are the sensitivity of the three drives in question as auto-calculated by WinISD.

Illusion C12XL
Published 2.83V: 87.4dB
USPL (2.83V): 87.77dB | SPL (1W): 84.64dB

Audiofrog GB12D2
Published 2.83V: 95dB
USPL (2.83V): 95.73dB | SPL (1W): 86.69dB

Audiofrog GB12D4
Published 2.83V: 92dB
USPL (2.83V): 92.26dB | SPL (1W): 86.44dB
 

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I modeled them in Bassbox pro in their manufacturer recommended sealed and ported boxes so you all can see the differences. They both are D2 DVC and both manufacturers recommend 600 watts RMS so that is what I used.

AudioFrog GB12 D2 (yellow) vs Illusion Audio C12XL (red) sealed 1.0 cu ft

AudioFrog GB12 D2 (yellow) vs Illusion Audio C12XL (red) sealed 1.0 cu ft.png


AudioFrog GB12 D2 (orange) vs Illusion Audio C12XL (green) ported 1.5 cu ft 33 Hz. Illusion recommends a 1.5 cu ft box but doesn't recommend an fb so I used the same 1.5 cu ft box for both.

AudioFrog GB12 D2 (orange) vs Illusion Audio C12XL (green) ported.png


AudioFrog GB12 D2 vs Illusion Audio C12XL all together ported and sealed

AudioFrog GB12 D2 vs Illusion Audio C12XL all together ported and sealed.png
 
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