DiyMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

1 - 20 of 67 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have the stock b&o and plan to update the front 3 way with random, well-measuring drivers, add a sub and tune it all with a minidsp 6x8.

I am currently piecing together the rest of the needed equipment for the build which is all used to save some money. More later...

If anyone has thoughts or suggestions, please feel free to send it this way. TIA


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
It’s been 15yrs since I put a 2way focal system in my ‘02 b5 s4 which I sold in 2011. Since then I’ve had a couple of cars and had to “rock” their middling factory systems due to being back in school/lack of funds. Because of this, my interest moved over to home theater and 2ch music. This hobby is no cheaper, but I learned a ton about speaker building and acoustic science thanks to AVSforum.

Over the past couple of years, I’ve been most intrigued by Dennis Murphy of Philharmonic Audio as well as some other speaker designers. Dennis has long had a reputation of using inexpensive drivers combined with his crossover knowledge/wizardry to produce some very good and accurate speakers at unusually low prices. For personal reasons he has closed up his business and turned over his designs to Salk Sound amongst others. His most recent accomplishment prior to closing is his BMR Philharmonitor (http://philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html). It utilizes a RAAL ribbon tweeter, a Scanspeak 7” woofer and a Balanced Mode Radiator (BMR) for the mids. His website says this about the BMR: “The BMR is a flat-diaphragm speaker that uses strategically placed weights in the diaphragm to counteract the mass of the voice coil at higher frequencies. The driver operates as a piston at lower frequencies, but shifts to a bending wave motion mode in the lower treble, and to a second bending mode in the upper treble. The result is greatly reduced breakup and extremely broad dispersion above 2,000 Hz. This driver is used as both a midrange and tweeter in several commercial applications. Although the BMR can function acceptably in this fashion, its true strength is upper midrange performance. The highest frequencies are much better served by the RAAL ribbon tweeter.” Sounds funky! I remember reading about BMR drivers years ago and being fascinated by it’s different actions (pistonic and wave-like). It reminded me of how light can behave as a wave or a particle (which can even be affected by/dependent on whether or not the light experiment is being observed!). This new speaker was reviewed to many accolades over on audioholics https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/bmr-philharmonitor-1
Seeing that inexpensive drivers can be combined with some crossover magic to produce a great measuring and sounding speaker made me want to try it with dsp.

When I finally had a decent car that I wanted to put money into, I started planning. So initially, the plan was to just add a sub and dsp to see if I could improve the sound of the b&o to satisfactory levels. Once I actually started to look into what it would take to make that work (MOST connection, new amps, etc) I started thinking I may as well replace the speakers too, or at least the fronts.

When I started looking at 3way sets, I’d forgotten how expensive they can get. Great stuff but easily $1k+. So I began looking on madisound and parts express, etc for raw drivers. I don’t understand what all the speaker parameters mean, but I do know what a flat frequency response looks like so I started there.

The biggest limitations have been the depths available in the various factory speaker locations, particularly the midrange on the dash. While I don’t know the exact depths, I do know a few speakers that do fit like the Audison voce 3” and Illusion Audio c3cx. They’re both relatively shallow around 38mm, but are also pretty expensive...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Speaker Options

As I’ve previously mentioned, I’m choosing drivers based on fitment in the stock locations and frequency response only. If the other parameters I don’t understand indicate any of these won’t work for other reasons, please let me know.


For the tweeter, I’m pretty sure I’m going with this guy, the SB Acoustics SB21RDC-C000-4
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/sb-sb21rdc-c000-4/
I’m guessing it’ll fit and the FR is ruler flat with the off-axis looking pretty good too.


For the midrange, I have narrowed it down to a couple:

1. Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3" Full-Range Speaker 4 Ohm
https://www.parts-express.com/tectonic-tebm46c20n-4b-bmr-3-full-range-speaker-4-ohm--297-2157

Or

2. SB Acoustics SB10PGC21-4 3" Full Range
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/sb-acoustics-sb10pgc21-4-3-full-range/

I don’t know if #2 with fit depth-wise, anyone with info on this feel free to chime in. I also have a pm to Dennis Murphy on AVS about the BMR for this use. I’m interested to see what he thinks.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Well I already got a reply from Dennis:

“Hi I think your plan is workable, but it will take a lot of fiddling with the dsp to get things sounding right. The BMR should function well as a midrange, with a lower crossover point of 400 Hz - 500 Hz using 4th order slopes, and an upper crossover of 3 kHz to 5 kHz depending on how robust your tweeter is. The one tricky thing about the BMR is getting the chamber right. It shouldn't be more than about 4" wide and high, and 4" deep. And it will have to be heavily stuffed with Eco-Core denim insulation. Nothing else will adequately tame a sharp peak and dip below 2 kHz, where the driver transitions from pistonic to bending motion. Eco Core is available from Meniscus Audio, but the minimum order size is way more than you'll need for the BMR. You could also stuff the woofer box with it if the box is sealed. If it's ported, you won't want much stuffing in the box. Also--make sure the BMR chamber is totally sealed--no air leaks or the driver won't load properly. Cheers, Dennis”

So it looks like the installation requirements are very specific to achieve the optimal performance out of the BMR. I think I’m going to try and go by my audio shop and talk with them this weekend. If possibly feasible, I may just buy the BMRs since they’re so cheap and the other mids and see which ones work best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Defs interested in this build not only because I have l more experience with home audio and AVS forum but also because I have read a lot about the Philharmonitor and I’ve listened to them in person when I went to see Mr. Salk at his factory in his beautiful wood finishes truly an amazing sounding speaker!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
See this Zaph review on similar SB tweeters here.

It has a higher resonant frequency so it would need to be crossed over a little higher but 2500 Hz LR4 should be no issue with this one either. If your putting together a three way with a smaller more capable midrange than you should be fine here. It’s also a larger format (obviously) and has a little less thermal power handling and I personally don’t see this tweeter not being able to keep up with most anything SQ related.

Listen to GreatLaBroski, I know he’s done a lot of testing. SkizeR too but I think he’s confusing the SB17 woofer with their tweeter, IDK.
Thanks for the link. Wish there was a more recent comparison, but he did a great job with that. It made the info much easier to understand.

There’s a couple of mids I’m looking at. Best guess is that I’m limited to no bigger than 3” and no deeper than about 38mm. The only two aftermarket mids I’ve heard of being used in the b&o factory location are the Illusion c3cx and audison voce which are both 3”/38mm.

The Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3"

https://www.parts-express.com/tectonic-tebm46c20n-4b-bmr-3-full-range-speaker-4-ohm--297-2157

I go into why I picked this one here, but basically because it’s a good flat mid with some interesting properties, though the optimal chamber requirements may be unrealistic?

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/420087-2014-audi-s4-random-drivers-minidsp-si-bm12.html

The other is SB Acoustics SB10PGC21-4 3" Full Range if I have enough depth. Or can it be made to fit?

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/sb-acoustics-sb10pgc21-4-3-full-range/

Would either be preferred to pair with one of the tweets we’re discussing/work in an active 3 way?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I tried the smaller version of that tectonic driver and wasn’t all that impressed with it but I didn’t put it into an enclosure either and give it a chance or do any measuring/testing. Xmax seems good and the sensitivity isn’t too low so if carefully executed in the right enclosure it might sound good assuming the distortion is low. I would say this driver needs an enclosure to sound it’s best.

SB Acoustics usually makes pretty decent stuff but that driver requires a big enclosure or use it IB but make sure you separate the back wave from the front wave. It has a lower fs so it might be able to cross lower than the tectonic driver which has an fs of 170.

Any of those SB tweeters should be able to get much louder than these full range drivers will and if you cross the mid to the tweeter so that their dispersion is wide (~2.5k) than you should have an easier time dialing in the response with a DSP after proper polarity and T/A is set.

I think this Morel CCWR254 driver would make an excellent driver crossed with those tweeters but it’s obviously a bit more money. Hillbilly recently tested these against some AF GB25 and they did well.
Decided to copy this here to keep from cluttering the other thread.

I actually came across those morel mids the other day, they look good. I'm not opposed to spending a little more if it's worth it since most of the music lives in the midrange, plus they fit.

Regarding the SB mid I linked, having never installed anything myself, how do you keep the front and back waves separate?
With the BMR, is it possible to make a sealed enclosure in the stock dash location? Guessing it'd have to be done with fiberglass? How big an enclosure?
I'm not planning on using these full range, just as mids. I simply picked these because the FRs looked better than most of the dedicated mids I was seeing.

I've read that the FR around the 2500k mark is where a lot of the vocal range is located. Could it be more ideal to keep the mid playing up a little higher so that the xo point is not in that range?

Thanks for all your help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Defs interested in this build not only because I have l more experience with home audio and AVS forum but also because I have read a lot about the Philharmonitor and I’ve listened to them in person when I went to see Mr. Salk at his factory in his beautiful wood finishes truly an amazing sounding speaker!

Phil’s and Salk? That’s a good day! Unfortunately, I haven’t heard either in person. Funk is another I’d love to check out.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Getting to hear Nathan’s speakers (Funk) would be an amazing experience. I’ve heard quite a few very high end speakers being apart of the industry and having business related trips where I go listen to different brands of speakers and shop competitors and truthfully I can say the brand new Salk Sounds SS 9.5 is the best speaker I’ve heard hands down without a second thought.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Getting to hear Nathan’s speakers (Funk) would be an amazing experience. I’ve heard quite a few very high end speakers being apart of the industry and having business related trips where I go listen to different brands of speakers and shop competitors and truthfully I can say the brand new Salk Sounds SS 9.5 is the best speaker I’ve heard hands down without a second thought.




They look gorgeous and would love to hear those.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Getting to hear Nathan’s speakers (Funk) would be an amazing experience. I’ve heard quite a few very high end speakers being apart of the industry and having business related trips where I go listen to different brands of speakers and shop competitors and truthfully I can say the brand new Salk Sounds SS 9.5 is the best speaker I’ve heard hands down without a second thought.




They look gorgeous and would love to hear those.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
High praise for sure lmao and it’s well deserved!
Also just picked up my 2016 A4 today!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Well, I went by my audio shop over the weekend to try and get an estimate for installation and kick around some ideas. I realized that I’ve definitely been out of this hobby for longer than I thought, because I’d forgotten how expensive it can be. It’s going to cost twice as much as I thought to put all the equipment in and build the fiberglass box.

As of now, the plan is to install:

Alpine pdx-v9 (2)
MOST connector box
Minidsp 6x8
SI bm12 mkv
Sound dampening on front doors
3-way speakers up front

That said, I’m going to have to install this stuff in at least two stages, but I’m unsure what to do first. An amp and sub seems like a good start, but can I do that without needing to install the MOST box or minidsp at the same time?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Stole this from the audizine b8 s4 audio thread. I've wondered if anyone has measured the factory b&o system. I was planning on trying to do so to help out the community, but glad to see I don't need to. I was just thinking yesterday about starting off by replacing the speakers only while I save money for the rest of the install, but it looks like that'd be a worthless proposition looking at the signals coming out of the factory b&o amp...





I'm not familiar with anything Audison, but I still maybe able to help you out a little because I've bypassed the B&O system in favor of aftermarket. It's impossible to describe in words what the improvements are because frankly it has to be heard to be believed. What good would it do to tell you something like it's "awesome/great/totally worth it/etc.". That's just my opinion. I can, however, provide you with some visuals that may help you make up your own mind.



If your unfamiliar with JL's Tun software the background colors represent each of the B&O channels:



Front Left and right

Blue = bass channel

Violet = door woofer channel

Red = dash midrange and tweeter sail (this is a shared channel in the B&O system)

Gray/White line graph = the unaltered B&O signal being sent to your speakers. It's horrendous.



Rear left and right

Blue = bass channel

Green = rear woofer channel

Gray/White line graph = the unaltered B&O signal being sent to you speakers.







This is the signal after the factory time alignment has been removed, a 31 band eq has been applied, and the signal is summed into a full range signal.



The yellow/gold line graph is the new signal being sent to the aftermarket amps then speakers.









I mean absolutely no offense to anyone who has changed out there stock speakers for aftermarket running off the B&O amp, but in all honesty doing that is like putting a 1 inch Band-Aid on a 10 inch cut hoping that stops the bleeding. You need to fix the root cause of the problem to really improve the overall performance of the B&O system and that's the signal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,597 Posts
Before you do anything... get a mObridge DA1 or DA3.
It'll give you a clean flat signal source to start with, which will make everything downstream so much better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Before you do anything... get a mObridge DA1 or DA3.
It'll give you a clean flat signal source to start with, which will make everything downstream so much better.
As luck would have it, I recently scooped up a audison/mobridge da1 bit from a fellow member that should do the job??

Looks like you have a pretty sweet system in your 440! How do you like the w800s?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,597 Posts
As luck would have it, I recently scooped up a audison/mobridge da1 bit from a fellow member that should do the job??

Looks like you have a pretty sweet system in your 440! How do you like the w800s?
Perfect. The DA1 will make all the difference in the world. Such a clean and flat signal to start out with. It's a must in these vehicles.
I've had a couple Audi's, prior to the BMW (I had an S4, and an SQ5), so I have a fair bit of experience in doing systems in that series of vehicle (the SQ5 has a virtually identical interior as an A4/S4).

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/277841-audi-sq-build-wish-id-taken-more-pics.html

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/391146-lost-my-mind-mmats-amplifiers-audiofrog-speakers.html

I just installed the W800's in the BMW, and they are incredible! Very powerful midbass drivers. They have a similar 'punch factor' as the Audiofrog GB60's that I had in the front door of my Audi's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ambesolman

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Subbing - just found this - will go back to catch all of the proceeding pages

We could use some pics.....of the car.....and where you plan to put things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Perfect. The DA1 will make all the difference in the world. Such a clean and flat signal to start out with. It's a must in these vehicles.

I've had a couple Audi's, prior to the BMW (I had an S4, and an SQ5), so I have a fair bit of experience in doing systems in that series of vehicle (the SQ5 has a virtually identical interior as an A4/S4).



https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/277841-audi-sq-build-wish-id-taken-more-pics.html



https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/391146-lost-my-mind-mmats-amplifiers-audiofrog-speakers.html



I just installed the W800's in the BMW, and they are incredible! Very powerful midbass drivers. They have a similar 'punch factor' as the Audiofrog GB60's that I had in the front door of my Audi's.


This is the only pic I can find and it was taken after its first bath 2yrs ago. I’ve since put a rs4 grill and ecs carbon fiber intake on it. The interior is two tone black/cream with carbon fiber trim.
Glad to have a couple of fellow s4 audio nerds in here!Looks like I have some inspirational reading to do. And speaking of carbon fiber, I just got my pair of SI tm65 mkiii yesterday;) This is gonna be fun...






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
1 - 20 of 67 Posts
Top