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Discussion Starter #1
So I've finally decided to get moving on an audio build for my Type R. The biggest hurdle for me in this case is that I have to use the factory HU, it's just too integrated into other systems on the car. Right now I'm just in early planning stages and want to come up with a game plan. The factory system uses 12 channels: (1) 3.5" center channel, (1) 8" sub in right trunk pocket, (2) 6.5" front doors, (2) front 0.75" tweets in sails, (2) 6.5" rear doors, (2) 0.75" rear tweets in doors, and (2) 3.5" drivers in C pillars. The HU connects to the oem amp via an unconventional optical connection, the amp must be used unfortunately. The HU also sends voice commands and nav instructions through the center channel only, this raises some questions from me. Initially my plan was to have the pros tackle this one but in this case I have one thing on my side that I didn't have on my previous build: time, and another car. Also, this is a performance vehicle, I don't want to add a ton of weight, as of now, custom enclosures are off the table.

My basic thoughts as of now:

Add some form of DSP to get a good signal from oem HU and amp
2 way active front stage (may consider passive though)
5 channel amp, maybe around 1000w rms total, 500 to sub, small footprint
Utilize factory sub enclosure with 8" sub
Add CLD and CCF to front doors and trunk
Upgrade center channel speaker but run from oem amp
Either remove or leave remaining channels running from oem amp
Amp/DSP mounted in spare tire area in trunk

I have a simple 2 way active setup in my 2010 Si using a Pioneer AVH-X5700BHS. It's my first active setup and is obviously simple and all controlled through the HU. I have no experience with DSP's but I'll have to implement something to get a decent signal from the oem HU. I can learn and I have plenty of time, car's laid up all winter anyway, don't care if it takes 3-4 months. This is the main area I'll need help. I read somewhere that for a case like this I should utilize something like JL fix 86 to clean up and sum the oem signal and add a separate DSP. Is there something out there that does all this in one package?

Like I said my plan as of now is to utilize the factory sub enclosure and install either a shallow mount 8" (really don't want to) or add some type of ring so I can add something larger. Kind of have my heart set on an 8" Alpine Type R, it's a nice driver, it's black, red, and has an R on it, would obviously fit the theme very well. There's a member at civicx.com that made his own kit for this and actually made a bunch to sell, that was like a year ago though and I tried to contact him to no avail, so I guess I'm on my own there. Pic below on that showing about what I'd like to accomplish.

As for the budget, I'm really hoping I can pull this all off for ~$2k or less, at least initially. I'm hoping I can get the signal issue sorted for no more than around $500. I need a signal solution first and foremost, then I'll choose amp, and drivers. For you DSP guru's out there, is there a relative simple, cost effective solution to what I'm trying to accomplish here?

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That's a beauty of a car. I'm surprised the factory system doesn't sound good. Id upgrade the front stage.

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Get a dsp with integrated amp. And some decent three or 2 way for the front stage. Check the forums for Deals got 2k you could do some magic. You may even stretch your budget and get some used audio frogz and a nice dsp. I got Hertz three way for my fronts with a decent Sony amp and an dsp. Sounds really good. Using the pioneer headunit. But mine is different since you want to keep the factory hu.

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Discussion Starter #4
Get a dsp with integrated amp. And some decent three or 2 way for the front stage. Check the forums for Deals got 2k you could do some magic. You may even stretch your budget and get some used audio frogz and a nice dsp. I got Hertz three way for my fronts with a decent Sony amp and an dsp. Sounds really good. Using the pioneer headunit. But mine is different since you want to keep the factory hu.

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I don't want to keep the factory HU I have to =(

An amp with an integrated DSP would maybe do though :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I just found the JL VX1000/5i, 100w x4 @2ohm + 500w x1 @2ohm with built in DSP you control from your phone. Sounds absolutely perfect except for the $1,300 price tag. Hell, pair that with the JL fix 86, add some JL components (C5 maybe?), and an 8w3 and call it day. That $2k got eaten up pretty quick :LOL:
 

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I just found the JL VX1000/5i, 100w x4 @2ohm + 500w x1 @2ohm with built in DSP you control from your phone. Sounds absolutely perfect except for the $1,300 price tag. Hell, pair that with the JL fix 86, add some JL components (C5 maybe?), and an 8w3 and call it day. That $2k got eaten up pretty quick
That's why I mean check car audioforums for second hand. Save lots of $$_ and always like be condition. For head unit get one with Android or car play.

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I just found the JL VX1000/5i, 100w x4 @2ohm + 500w x1 @2ohm with built in DSP you control from your phone. Sounds absolutely perfect except for the $1,300 price tag. Hell, pair that with the JL fix 86, add some JL components (C5 maybe?), and an 8w3 and call it day. That $2k got eaten up pretty quick :LOL:
.

As much as I like the JL VXi DSP/Amps & FiX units, I think that the better solution for you in this instance is the newer Audison Forza AP F8.9 bit OEM Integration DSP/Amp combined with a small, inexpensive monoblock amp of your choice for the specific subwoofer that you decide on using.

If you find a good Audison dealer, you can purchase it for considerably less than the MSRP.

I've never been too keen to use the Audison DSP products, but this little Forza DSP/Amp solves a lot of OEM integration problems in one very compact package.

The Forza unit basically combines the separate JL Audio FiX and VXi units into one compact unit, and the Forza has some additional integration features. For instance, it has built-in, adjustable speaker load resistors for the OEM amp which are sometimes necessary when integrating your system and not connecting the OEM speakers to the OEM amplifier(s).

Yes, you would/might have to add a separate subwoofer amp, but that may be an advantage if you later decide that you need to upgrade your subwoofer stage...

A single 8" subwoofer in the OEM enclosure will add some low end, but don't expect miracles from it. For instance, even in my GF's daily driver, she was not satisfied with the low end until I used FOUR high xmax, low-inductance 8" subs with about 1300 watts on tap. :-O (I needed to stick with 8" subs and not 10" or larger in order to keep the install stealthy & OEM looking).

And for her, it wasn't about wanting ground-pounding bass...it was more about wanting clean, articulate, deep bass, with great impact & dynamics. Even a really good single 8" subwoofer in its ideal enclosure and ideal location will struggle to provide that in 95% of vehicles.

The Forza DSP/Amp unit provides a DSP-processed 9th Line Output RCA channel to feed to a separate subwoofer amp (much like the multi-channel VXi DSP/Amps).

With one of the Audison DRC remotes, you also have the option to choose between four DSP Presets and select the Source among Master, Auxiliary, and the Optical Digital Inputs. You can also control Master Volume, Subwoofer Volume, and Fader (depending on how you set up your system).

This allows you to add and connect a separate, pristine source unit to the system in order to bypass the mediocre OEM head unit. For instance, a portable DAP that has Digital or high-quality analog Line Outputs. Or connect a high-quality Apt-X HD Bluetooth streaming module or the Mosconi AMAS 96k to the analog auxiliary or digital inputs on the DSP. I use my portable iBasso DX220 DAP for this purpose.

The NAV voice prompts and chimes/warning tones could still be audible through the OEM amp & center channel speaker.

Put as much of the rest of your budget as you can into really good Left & Right Font Stage drivers and proper sound deadening/installation. Personally, I would delete the rear door mids & tweeters, but maybe keep the C-pillar speakers (upgrade them with a decent small coaxial set or full-range driver) for some rear fill.

Factory door locations will work great for 6.5"-7'' midwoofers with the proper, stout baffles and good sound-treatment applied in the doors & door panels.

And fabricating custom sail panel pods in order to fit larger/better tweeters is really not all that difficult, and it's one of the least expensive mods you can do. It is also easy & inexpensive to put back to stock if done with some thought. Simple, appropriately-sized PVC pipe or end caps can be epoxied, molded, and painted into the OEM sail panel trim pieces with off-the-shelf products. There are plenty of examples in the build logs here.

Audison Prima Forza AP F8.9 bit OEM Integration 9-Channel DSP/8-Channel Amplifier
 

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Discussion Starter #8

Thanks for the informative reply!

This solution definitely would save me some money over the FiX 86 + VXi combo which is about $1700 alone :sick:. Looks like I can get that for roughly $800 or so. Since it would also provide a processed line out for a sub amp I could probably get away with something pretty cost effective there, hell I have an Alpine MRP-M650 laying around!

As for the single 8" sub, I don't expect anything great. I'm a bass hungry listener, current system has 1800w rms fed to 2 12's. I listen primarily to rap and bass heavy electronic stuff so for me, the more the better. I'm hoping to start leaning more on the SQ side though and that once I get there, I can be satisfied with the lower bass levels. Ideally I'd like two custom ported enclosures in each pocket on the sides of the trunk housing two beefy 8" subs (JL 8w7, Sundown Audio SA-8 v.2, etc.), but I don't have the fab skills and I'm guessing that alone would run me more money than I'm willing to spend at a shop, at least at the moment. Also, that means a lot more weight and could mean too much load on the electrical system and require upgrades there (even more weight).

As for the tweeters, most 0.75" will fit the oem sail location, shown in the photo below. I want everything to be easily and 100% reversible. I did make the PVC end cap tweeter pods for my Si though and they worked out great, obviously I could have an extra set of the A pillar plastic so that isn't a big deal. For now though I'd like to see if the oem location is enough. Though I have always wanted to try a 3 way active system, I just don't know if this is the right car to try that out on.

I haven't landed on a set of drivers for the front, was leaning on doing al JL stuff if I go for the FiX 86 + VXi combo. I've never had any of their mid-range drivers and tweets though. I'm completely open to trying just about anything there, what are some of your favorites?

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Discussion Starter #9
Just bought all the gear. Budget’s out the window completely but oh well.

1. Audison AP F8.9
- Love the expand ability, can easily go 3 way, add rear fill, center channel etc.
- Lots of power: 8x85w @4ohm, 8x135 @2ohm, 4x260 @4ohm bridged
- Should be able to to handle all signal summing and processing
- Tiny footprint, hopefully will easily fit under passenger seat

2. Hertz MLK 165.3
- Thinking I can fit the tweet nicely in the oem sail location
- Passive crossover filtered the tweet at 1.8k & 12db/oct, hoping I can cross close to that and have good 2 way results

3. JL 12W3v2 in H.O. ported enclosure
- Did some measuring and I think it will fit really nicely up against the rear seats in the hatch
- No fab needed, enclosure built to JL specs, fits well (hopefully), done and done

4. JL XD600/1v2
- 600w rms, supposed to cool and efficient, not much to say here
- Had an Alpine MRP-M650 that's also 600w rms @2ohm, probably should've used it but kinda have other plans for it

5. Lots of all the rest
- Kilmat CLD tiles, CCF, ferrules, gaffer tape, power/ground/speaker/rca from knukonceptz, loads of interior clips I'll inevitably break


I have some days off after the new year and am hoping to make some good progress during that time. I'm still not sure what to do about the center channel and I have a lot to learn regarding oem integration AND the utilization of a DSP. I'll have to get something to be able to measure output so I can successfully eq, don't know what to do there yet.

Excited to get started though :D
 

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Use the iDataLink Maestro AR with the Forza to keep the OEM center channel for hands-free BT calling, NAV prompts, warning chimes, etc.

Unless you use a processor/DSP that has true center channel processing (one that includes a dedicated center channel upmixing algorithm) don't bother trying to use a center channel for your stereo music listening. It will do more harm than good. Just use the iDatalink AR to keep the OEM center channel functionality, etc.

Kilmat probably wouldn't have been my first choice for CLD, and I also would not use gaffer tape in the install. The adhesive will degrade rapidly over time with the many hot/cold cycles common in vehicle environments. I've worked as a Gaffer for many years and own/operate a grip & lighting rental company. ;)

Otherwise, you should be off to a good start wiith the gear you've selected. Take your time and install it all properly.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Use the iDataLink Maestro AR with the Forza to keep the OEM center channel for hands-free BT calling, NAV prompts, warning chimes, etc.

Unless you use a processor/DSP that has true center channel processing (one that includes a dedicated center channel upmixing algorithm) don't bother trying to use a center channel for your stereo music listening. It will do more harm than good. Just use the iDatalink AR to keep the OEM center channel functionality, etc.

Kilmat probably wouldn't have been my first choice for CLD, and I also would not use gaffer tape in the install. The adhesive will degrade rapidly over time with the many hot/cold cycles common in vehicle environments. I've worked as a Gaffer for many years and own/operate a grip & lighting rental company. ;)

Otherwise, you should be off to a good start wiith the gear you've selected. Take your time and install it all properly.
Thanks for the input, I’ll look into the iDataLink Maestro AR, I’d really hate to lose the center channel functionality.

What’s the issue with Kilmat? It’s all just foil and butyl, hard for me to imagine one being that much better than another, it was cost effective and well reviewed so I went with it.

Thats a good point about the adhesive with the gaffer tape. Just wanted to secure the wires this time around, guess I’ll look into accomplishing that another way.
 

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What’s the issue with Kilmat? It’s all just foil and butyl, hard for me to imagine one being that much better than another, it was cost effective and well reviewed so I went with it.
As someone who regularly got yelled at by the wife for CLD that melted in the summer and dripped below the door (ruined a few pants), CLD is most definitely not all the same. So going forward I will only use high quality, known CLD. Since SDS is no longer available, I’ll be using Resonix from Nick at Apicella Sound who is a regular contributor here.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
As someone who regularly got yelled at by the wife for CLD that melted in the summer and dripped below the door (ruined a few pants), CLD is most definitely not all the same. So going forward I will only use high quality, known CLD. Since SDS is no longer available, I’ll be using Resonix from Nick at Apicella Sound who is a regular contributor here.
Oof, now you have me nervous :oops:
 

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Oof, now you have me nervous :oops:
You should be. Testing on DIYMA has shown they are definitely not the same. Now you could use what you have under the carpet or under the trunk where you don’t care if it melts but for the doors, I’d definitely get the good stuff. But besides melting, the performance of the CLD differs too so it isn’t like it is all about the melting but that is the huge difference between the best and lesser products.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ok so I finally got started over the break but definitely didn't get nearly as far as I'd have liked. I only started the tear down and deadening of the front two doors and trunk. The third and fourth pictures below are before and after adding noico finising tape. Any of you ever use that stuff? I'm kind of wondering what's the point. I ran out of that roll real quick and they're $9/ea. I also have a lot of CCF to cover it up with I just haven't gotten started yet, though in the trunk I can't really add any more as I'm still using the foam insert to mount the sub amp.

As for the quality of Kilmat, it's definitely a bit lighter than others I've used before but as far as the melting thing goes, the sheet it comes with says it's good up to 100 deg C. Also, I searched the Amazon reviews for 'melt', and the only thing that came up out of 500 reviews was of someone that lives in Arizona saying they've had no issues with melting. I have 72 sq ft of the stuff so I'm gonna put it to use. I'm actually more worried that I've been applying it in a garage that hasn't been over about 40 degrees, guess I should probably hit it all with a heat gun and go back over it.

I'm actually considering pulling the head liner and deadening the roof. It'll be a bitch but I'm fairly certain the roof will resonate like hell if I don't. I'm not in a big hurry and I really only wanna tear this car apart once.

To actually seal the doors I'm planning on cutting a template out and tracing that onto some aluminum baking pans, cutting that out, and covering it with sheets of the kilmat, maybe even with CCF or more kilmat on the back. Also I know the speaker adapters are crappy but I plan on doing as much as I can to reinforce them. I just don't have much in the way of fabbing up some baffles.

Also, F#$% that gooey shit.

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Looking good. Maybe a little overkill on the CCD on the floor where the metal is thicker but overall looks good. And that is definitely a big door opening to close, it might even quiet the car some with closing that hole.
 

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@dgage - what brand of sound deadener did you use that melted? Would be helpful to know so that others can avoid it.

I've only sound-deadened one car and I use Noico 80 mil along with Noico Liner (closed cell foam) and was actually pretty impressed with it. It's been installed for years now, on everything from my doors, rear-deck and even my roof (was having issues with headliner vibrations) - haven't had a single issue and the difference in midbass after deadening the doors was pretty dramatic.

I would have absolutely no hesitation in recommending Noico based on my experience with it. Is it the absolute best? Of course not. Is it a good product at a great price? Absolutely - at least based on my experience with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Looking good. Maybe a little overkill on the CCD on the floor where the metal is thicker but overall looks good. And that is definitely a big door opening to close, it might even quiet the car some with closing that hole.
If you're talking about the floor where the spare tire well is it's surprisingly not as solid as it should be. Going around the trunk knocking that area still seems to resonate the most even though I put the most Kilmat there. The foam piece I plan on mounting the sub amp in doesn'tfit as well anymore, may have to trim it.

@dgage - what brand of sound deadener did you use that melted? Would be helpful to know so that others can avoid it.

I've only sound-deadened one car and I use Noico 80 mil along with Noico Liner (closed cell foam) and was actually pretty impressed with it. It's been installed for years now, on everything from my doors, rear-deck and even my roof (was having issues with headliner vibrations) - haven't had a single issue and the difference in midbass after deadening the doors was pretty dramatic.

I would have absolutely no hesitation in recommending Noico based on my experience with it. Is it the absolute best? Of course not. Is it a good product at a great price? Absolutely - at least based on my experience with it.
I’ve actually never had any that melted. A member above mentioned that I should be careful with the cheaper ones so that was just me addressing that.
 
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