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Discussion Starter #1
As stated in the title, (and yes I have used search) I am looking for sub stage recommendations for a future build. Trying to spend at or below $250 for either subwoofer configuration. Space limitations originally had me at two 10s, but some reconfiguring has opened up more options.

The vehicle is an ’04 xB and therefore the sub(s) will be in the cabin. The enclosure will likely be sealed behind the back seat with the subs facing up, or possibly angled back slightly toward the rear hatch. Ported is a possibility, but I would like to keep the enclosure fairly shallow. I have not pulled together general volume information yet.

Focus is on SQ, but I would like to be able to get low when the need arises. Musical preference is typically rock, metal, rhythm rock, acoustic, etc. Though occasionally I will put on some hip hop, rap when I just need to feel some bass.

Looking at HAT I6 for the front stage, and amps will be selected once components and subs have been finalized. Probably no more than 500 watts to the sub stage and that would be on the high end.

For reference, I have been looking at going with a pair of ARC KS10D2/D4 or KS12D2/D4 vs a single ARC 12D2/D4. Is one of these configurations better than the other? Would I be better off looking at another brand/model(s)?
 

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The peerless xxls on parts express is very well thought of, but might be too deep for you. Still, it fits in a small ported box
Heard great things about the new type r 8's, might be a good option.
CDT QES 1020, fits in very small sealed box
Shop CDT Audio - QES-1020
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I’ve seen that Dayton HO mentioned quite a bit on diyma. That sub would fall right in the range of the KS10 and KS12 price wise. Lower dB sensitivity, slightly less Xmax and less cone area than the Arc alternative. Any idea how the sound quality is between the two? The HO also has triple the power handling (600w RMS vs 200w RMS), which means spending quite a bit more money on an amp. Especially when you go from needing 400w RMS of clean power to needing 1200w RMS.

The Peerless XXLS seems to fall right in line with the pricing on the ARC 12D2. The XXLS has slightly higher sensitivity, quite a bit less excursion and a slightly smaller cone area. The Peerless does only need ½ the RMS power of the ARC, though. Which could save a chunk on amps and maybe even move me into a single 4 channel for the entire system. Anybody compare the ARC 12D2 to the Peerless XXLS 12?

I’m just not sure about the Alpine Type R 8s. At retail prices, certainly not. Even at Amazon prices, could they really compete with the KS10 with lower sensitivity, significantly smaller cone area and only slightly more Xmax? Other than mounting depth, the 10” model seems more in line with the ARC KS10. Though, I haven’t personally heard anything about the Alpine Type R line being an SQ line.

The CDT look like they could be nice for the money, but to be honest I really don’t care for the scratch and dent stuff. If it wasn’t visible, and performed correctly, fine. But having scratches on the dust cap before I ever even installed the subs would bug me to no end.

Also, it has been a while since I looked really closely at car audio and T/S parameters. If there are other specs I should be looking more closely at for a high sound quality driver, please let me know.
 

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The 12 inch Peerless XXLS 835017 needs pretty big sealed box. WinISD recommends over 1.8cu ft for 0.7 qtc. I wouldn't put it into a small sealed box. The 10 inch version could be different. Looking at WinSD, it does seem it could work in 0.6 to 1cu ft box fine. It does have very good SQ and sensitivity.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/71841-jbl-p1xxx-series-subs-hidden-treasure-imo-mini-comparison-inside.html

However, given the price of the XXLS, I personally would look into running two 10 inch Dayton HO or HFs.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Just a bit of an update. I took some measurements of the area where I would like to fit the subs (base of the rear hatch) and have some volume information. Optimum enclosure size (for fitment) would be 35”W x 21”D x 7”H, yielding just over 2 cubic feet of volume assuming ¾” MDF construction. That would also provide approximately 6 ¼” total top mount depth, including any required rear clearance for the drivers. I know that will limit my selections a bit more, but if there is a really great subwoofer(s) that requires a bit more height in the box, I can bump it up slightly.

It would also be nice to keep the power requirements reasonable. I’ll be looking to power the Imagines up front with 100-125 watts. If I could get into a reasonably priced 4 channel to power both of those as well as bridging 2 channels to power the sub(s) that would be great. If not, I may be looking at something like a Massive Nx5 or a combination reasonably priced 4, 2 or mono amps to power the whole system. Those Clarion XH series of amps sure look nice for the price.

Any other thoughts given this additional information? I’m also pretty familiar with Elemental Designs, and currently have an 11Kv.2 and NINe.2 in the wife’s car. I’m happy with the sound and quality of the product, but have become a little leery about the company recently. Especially with supply issues, etc. Any opinions on say a pair of e3.12s? I think they would be very similar to the ARC KS12.
 

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remember that sensitivity data is taken at 1000 hertz. Important I guess if you are running your sub that high. If you are not then that spec can be crap canned.

Power requirements:

Power requirements/specs are based off of a particular enclosure type for mechanical control and thermal limits. It does not mean you have to put THAT much power into the speaker. it's just subs. With cabin gain and proper implementation, about anything will do within reason. Hard to beat the Daytons for their engineering and design. The HO series work well in a small box ported low~30 hertz. Don't require huge port area's and get low and loud while being very clean (again reletively. after all it's a sub). As for end result, the enclosure is going to determine the SQ far more than the brand of woofer.

As for the Arc items. As recent events have shown, one tend to apparently pay a premium to run Arc equipment when it tends to be either rebadged or also sold as another brand with the same components. I suggest a search.
 

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I am revamping my car audio right now. The front stage will be built around HAT I6 as well. I am not rushing with buying a new amplifier yet. The reason is I want to see if the HATs will perform well running in passive mode. Some people have reported tweeters being too loud. If that's the case in my car too, I would like to run them in bi-amp mode, so I would have to buy a 5-channel amplifier, the newer BA GTA one. However, if they work fine as passive, I will be buying a 4-channel amplifier, something like PPI P900.4, and the rear channels will be bridged for the subwoofer. I have already selected the sub. It's Infinity Kappa 120.9w. I am pretty satisfied with it. One of the reasons I bought it was because I wanted to try out a low inductance subwoofer, not to mention the price. The Daytons and Peerless XXLS also have low inductance, but they have much lower xmax, and the Dayton HOs also have pretty low sensitivity in sealed boxes, while Peerless is a lot more expensive than Kappa. Kappa is definitely a good SQ sub, but given its 17.5mm xmax, it can reportedly take some beating with a good amplifier. It's pretty cheap that on your budget you could get two 10 inch versions, though I think single 12 inch is enough. 1 to 1.4 cu ft sealed box would be perfect for it.
 

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By the way, I have heard that Arc ARC12 sub is a cloned/improved version of Imagine Dynamics IDQv2, and there is a ton of information regarding the performance of those subs.
 

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The newer Type Rs supposedly have a pretty good sound for the money. They're popular with SPL shenanigans because they're priced cheap and they can take a lot of beating. However, with the right setup you should get a good SQ from them, at least for the money. Take a look at this discussion:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/91741-alpine-utilizing-xbl.html

I was looking at one of these vs Infinity Kappa, but eventually went for Kappa because it has impedance switch and I wanted to keep my options open with regards to amplifier impedance capabilities.

The reason people are excited about 8 inch Type Rs, because they're supposedly over-engineered for an 8 inch sub compared to many competing products.
 

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The infinity or JBL subs are great designs. Same parent company etc... Possibly buying a JBL 10 for a HT horn enclosure.

There is zero reason to spend lots of dough on subs in a car unless its aesthetics (matching brands a certain look... Whatever) unless you are paying for the added thermal capacity for use of a multi kilowatt amp.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
cubdenno…

I’ll have to give those Daytons a closer look. With multiple people throwing them out there, I just can’t ignore it. The one drawback is the single 4 Ohm voice coil(besides the aesthetics I don’t care too much for). That means I have to source an amp (likely mono) that is 2 Ohm stable. Not likely much chance for a single 4 channel amp to run the entire system.

And yes, I am aware that there is a lot of rebadging/repackaging throughout the audio industry. Not just with ARC. I’ve read all about the Zeff design amps and the similarities between higher priced ARC options and other “less reputable” brands. I also know that the guys (like Eric Stevens) who used to be over at ID are the ones who did a lot of the subwoofer design for companies like ARC and Elemental Designs. That is why you see so much similarity between the three brands, especially on the lower end models (ARC KS, ED Kv/e3 and ID CTX/ID). Was there something in particular you wanted me to search for cubdenno?

ZAKOH…

I’ll take a look at those Infinity Kappas. I was a big fan of the Infinity brand back in the 90s, but haven’t really taken a look in recent years. Back then, at least in these parts, the Kappa name was synonymous with sound quality.

Also, I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear that about the ARC 12. As stated above, I understand ID used to do a lot of design and even building of subs for ARC and other companies.

I’ll also give those new Alpine Type Rs a closer look. Should be able to find a local dealer or two to be able to demo those, as well.

Cubdenno again…

I knew JBL and Infinity were the same parent company. I’ll be giving some serious thought to both brands.

The more I consider it, the more I think my best option given my enclosure configuration will be to go with a pair of fairly shallow 12s. With some decent excursion and more surface area than a pair of 10s or one higher quality 12, the SPL should take care of its self, I would think. Then it is just a matter of finding out what is going to get me the best SQ, and the most bang for the buck given the budget.
 
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