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Discussion Starter #1
specifically in a BMW 2006 E60 w/ Logic7 system

background: my approach is to change the front three speakers and to add an amp to the OEM mid bass drivers under the front seats.

the 4" in the front doors and center channel with a mounting depth of 50mm limit is a limiting factor for upgrades.

would you install a better quality 3" driver that's more efficient (92dB/spl 200-14k) than a 4" component that's not as good on paper (400-14.5k and 90dB/spl)?

obviously an adaptor ring would be needed for a 3" driver installed into a 4" OEM

two speakers I've looked at are

hertz HL 70 vs EM 100

going 3" opens a few more component options with different brands too vs 4" drivers

going with the 3" also opens up more options for matching tweeters and cross overs as you can basically pick up components from three way sets.
 

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3" and "midbass" is a bit of an oxymoron. if it wont play realistically down to at least 80hz, its not a midbass
 

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10", 12" - these are midbasses.
6", 5" are midranges.
4", 3", 2" are high-mids
1.5"-1" are tweeters

You don't want to know what i call subwoofers :D
 

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10", 12" - these are midbasses.
6", 5" are midranges.
4", 3", 2" are high-mids
1.5"-1" are tweeters

You don't want to know what i call subwoofers :D
No... just no. If we go by driver size only, then midranges would be more like 3-4", but it's also important how the driver was optimized e.g. what motor, cone, etc. And why are you ignoring 'woofer'? I swear, people on car audio boards just have no friggin' clue how to identify speakers correctly. Or perhaps you're into pro audio where things are also screwed up compared to the real field, home audio. That would explain why you've got your speaker sizes all messed up.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
there are 8" mid bass drivers under the seats...

so the 4" drivers in the doors are definitely not ideal..

reading countless threads on BMW installs, most "stage 1" upgrades are going with a package of speakers from BSW but I think I could do better just changing the fronts/centre and amping the bottom seat drivers first. It's a clean upgrade and I still have the option of adding some subs into the wheel well.

my plan is to let the OEM L7 EQ do it's job in the short term but a proper EQ will be added when I add the sub.

- centre speaker is going to be a coaxial
- front speakers are going to be a 3" or 4" component set....HP at 250Hz
- 8" drivers are amped - bandpass 80-250
- dual 10" in the wheel well with a LP around 90Hz
 

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Short answer go bigger if possible. Can you possibly cram a 5.25 in the location? That is what I am doing in my old Lexus. And I wish I could get a 6.5 in there :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
no room or depth to go bigger in a BMW without modifications.

more info for those not familiar with BMW

their OEM speakers are 2ohm so these after market ones are 4ohm and usually diminishes volume slightly....the more effecient speaker the better is what I'm thinking (based on theory)
 

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their OEM speakers are 2ohm so these after market ones are 4ohm and usually diminishes volume slightly....the more effecient speaker the better is what I'm thinking (based on theory)
The more efficient the speaker, the worse it is at bass reproduction. See Hoffman's Iron Law. 4" is gonna have to be highpassed at like 100Hz or maybe even a little higher. I haven't compared 4" drivers for car audio so I can't offer many suggestions myself. I've used 4" for home audio but those don't handle enough power for your purpose.
 

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No... just no. If we go by driver size only, then midranges would be more like 3-4", but it's also important how the driver was optimized e.g. what motor, cone, etc. And why are you ignoring 'woofer'? I swear, people on car audio boards just have no friggin' clue how to identify speakers correctly. Or perhaps you're into pro audio where things are also screwed up compared to the real field, home audio. That would explain why you've got your speaker sizes all messed up.
Actually Dragon, I think you will find that home audio is even more screwed up than car audio with all the ******** marketing jargon and magic that gets spouted to sell people on spending more than they have to to get great sound.

Pro audio is governed by more "regulations" than a nuclear power facility.

Pro audio IS the real field. Everything else is what has trickled out of the technology invented for Pro Audio.
 

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Pro audio is full of compromises in quality for output. Not to say that there aren't some great pro audio drivers - there are - but the 2-ways with horn tweeters and a huge woofer/midbass all sound like garbage, and the 6" midranges are physically too large and have poor dispersion and driver spacing that causes combing, etc.

Home audio does have a lot of stupidity and marketing and overpriced cables, but the problem there is that people are willing to buy that crap. Anyone who does deserves to have wasted all of that money. Anyone who doesn't research things they buy - be those things audio, cars, or anything else - deserves to get screwed.

And keep in mind that we on this site do use home audio drivers pretty often... Dayton, Scan Speak, Seas, Vifa, Peerless, etc.

Don't get me wrong... I like car audio or I wouldn't be here. It would just be nice if other people had some real audio background and knew proper terms for things, etc. I do also like pro audio when done right - which seems to be rare. Regardless of output level, speakers should always strive for great SQ.
 

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If you want something that will fit, look into the pro audio line of 4" neo motored drivers. No they are not going to crank out huge amounts of midbass, but what 4" driver is. The Faitel 4" drivers are 8 ohm (a real 90+ db efficient) high efficiency speaker. Require little power (see CVJoints write up. in his install log) and very reasonable in price. Remember to subtract 3 db from the sensitivity from a speaker listed as 4 ohms and 6db from a 2 ohm speaker.

You are using your under the seat midbass speakers correct? Just need the transition mid? These faitels will do it, fit the opening, they play well 200-300 and up to your tweeter.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The more efficient the speaker, the worse it is at bass reproduction. See Hoffman's Iron Law. 4" is gonna have to be highpassed at like 100Hz or maybe even a little higher. I haven't compared 4" drivers for car audio so I can't offer many suggestions myself. I've used 4" for home audio but those don't handle enough power for your purpose.

thanks...so that doesn't solve my problem.

most 3" or 4" drivers I have found don't play down to 100Hz on the spec sheet. only the coaxials and there aren't many that fit 50mm depth with the tweeter.

I could easily get a four channel amp to power these front speakers and the mid bass drivers under the seat but it would take more work to tune the system back with so much more power to the front, but not the centre channel....remember my dilemma of trying to keep it simple and still keep everything OEM controlled off the iDrive system

I'd like to keep with car specific speakers as I'm here in Toronto with wide temperature fluctuations for winter and summer.
 

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Remember to subtract 3 db from the sensitivity from a speaker listed as 4 ohms and 6db from a 2 ohm speaker.
Depends whether the sensitivity is rated for SPL @ 1w/1m or SPL @ 2.83v/1m. Only do that subtraction for the latter. Rating it at 2.83v/1m makes things a bit easier for matching speakers on one channel i.e. for crossover purposes, though.
 

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Pro audio is full of compromises in quality for output. Not to say that there aren't some great pro audio drivers - there are - but the 2-ways with horn tweeters and a huge woofer/midbass all sound like garbage, and the 6" midranges are physically too large and have poor dispersion and driver spacing that causes combing, etc.

Home audio does have a lot of stupidity and marketing and overpriced cables, but the problem there is that people are willing to buy that crap. Anyone who does deserves to have wasted all of that money. Anyone who doesn't research things they buy - be those things audio, cars, or anything else - deserves to get screwed.

And keep in mind that we on this site do use home audio drivers pretty often... Dayton, Scan Speak, Seas, Vifa, Peerless, etc.

Don't get me wrong... I like car audio or I wouldn't be here. It would just be nice if other people had some real audio background and knew proper terms for things, etc.
If you are referring to the majority of pyramid or MTX under 300 dollar pro audio speakers then yeah. I get that. But feel free to come over and listen to my JBL's in my house. 15" mid and a horn loaded compression driver. On just 20 watts they are amazing. I put them in place of my Home audio speakers. On my HT set up they blow everything else I have heard away except other set ups using good Pro audio speakers than were way more advanced than what I have (IE more processing, more power etc.)

Home audio can not compete in lack of distortion that the pro audio speakers do. there is just more engineering in Pro audio drivers than home audio.

Yes there are some duds out there. But the good stuff is generally just better.
 

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If you were in my area, I would gladly put my home audio speakers up against your pro audio speakers. I'd probably have you come to my house, though, as my speakers are 3-way actives that would require me to bring my Emotiva LPA-1 and Behringer DCX2496 to run.

I have never heard pro audio that didn't sound like total crap to me. Movie theaters, auditoriums, whatever. JBL speakers, whatever. Gah. Please, no compression drivers.

I will say that my favorite speaker company at the moment is Acoustic Elegance and they are considered pro audio. I do like some pro audio components but have yet to hear a pro audio setup that I like overall. Then again, I haven't come across real pro audio speakers using AE drivers... but even then, if they were paired with compression tweeters, no thanks.
 

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thanks...so that doesn't solve my problem.

most 3" or 4" drivers I have found don't play down to 100Hz on the spec sheet. only the coaxials and there aren't many that fit 50mm depth with the tweeter.

I could easily get a four channel amp to power these front speakers and the mid bass drivers under the seat but it would take more work to tune the system back with so much more power to the front, but not the centre channel....remember my dilemma of trying to keep it simple and still keep everything OEM controlled off the iDrive system

I'd like to keep with car specific speakers as I'm here in Toronto with wide temperature fluctuations for winter and summer.
Understandable

Faital Pro 4FE30 4" Speakers - Faital Pro 4FE30 mid-high speaker has a wide frequency range from 90Hz to 20kHz and has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 4FE30 60 watt 3" has an efficiency of 91dB SPL for all high quality mid-high applicatio

waterproof -40 C to 120 C

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/86039-check-out-pics-let-me-know-what-you-think-2010-a.html

He uses 2 of these in an array on each side in his A pillar.
 

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If you were in my area, I would gladly put my home audio speakers up against your pro audio speakers. I'd probably have you come to my house, though, as my speakers are 3-way actives that would require me to bring my Emotiva LPA-1 and Behringer DCX2496 to run.

I have never heard pro audio that didn't sound like total crap to me. Movie theaters, auditoriums, whatever. JBL speakers, whatever. Gah. Please, no compression drivers.

I will say that my favorite speaker company at the moment is Acoustic Elegance and they are considered pro audio. I do like some pro audio components but have yet to hear a pro audio setup that I like overall. Then again, I haven't come across real pro audio speakers using AE drivers... but even then, if they were paired with compression tweeters, no thanks.
GASP!!! Chad may shoot lightning at you!!:D

Surprised you could tell the difference on tweeters vs compression drivers...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
8ohm's!!! that means this driver will have 15W at most....I would definitely need a separate amp

I would think finding a cross over and a tweeter, plus a matching coaxial for the centre would be difficult.

FYI this is the OEM amp and system for a E60 BMW with logic 7
9 channels, 13 loudspeakers
• 1 mid-range loudspeaker, middle, 100 mm
• 2 treble loudspeakers, front 26 mm
• 2 mid-range loudspeakers, front 100 mm
• 2 bass loudspeakers, 217 mm
• 2 mid-range loudspeakers, rear door, 100 mm
• 2 treble loudspeakers, rear door, 26 mm
• 2 mid-range loudspeakers, rear shelf, 100 mm
Bandwidth: 30 Hz to 20.000 Hz
Max. acoustic pressure: 110 dB
Amplifier power:
2 x 70 W (4 Ω) Bass
7 x 40 W (2 Ω)
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
If you're adding an amp for the 8"s, might as well use it for the 4"s as well.
If I get a 4 channel amp it's to power the under seat drivers and the sub woofer. not the front stage. my thinking is that if I don't amp the front stage, then I don't need a summing device or an EQ to supplement the built in Logic 7 system. The more items, the more the costs, and complexity.

GOAL is to clear up the front stage and improve midbass with as little intervention on the OEM system.

so we're back to the opening post question, 4" components then as the consensus versus a "higher quality" 3"?


worried that the under seat driver wouldn't play nicely in the 80-500Hz range since the 4" driver Hertz EM100 only goes down to 400Hz compared to the HL 70 which goes down to 200Hz
 
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