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I truly believe this as well and will offer my help to friends and family once I learn more about how to get the best out of the equipment I have, or friends and family have for example.


After source unit though I'm genuinely curious as to whats more important, install or speakers?

For instance can speakers alone make up for a 'bad install'?
Basic middle of the road and even entry level speakers will sound way better with a good install than top of the line speakers with a bad install. With car audio it's my opinion that how well the speakers are installed is far more important than how "good" the speakers are.
 

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Basic middle of the road and even entry level speakers will sound way better with a good install than top of the line speakers with a bad install. With car audio it's my opinion that how well the speakers are installed is far more important than how "good" the speakers are.
I agree in principle. But this idea that entry-level speakers will sound way better in a "good install" versus top-shelf stuff in a "bad install" is a bit of an audio trope. I want to add some scaffolding around the terms "good install" and "bad install".

There are multiple things that contribute to a good install, among these include:

1. Discovery (needs, project constraints, budget, and sacrifices you'll make to stay within budgets and constraints)
2. Driver Selection (+ overall system planning)
3. Installation
4. Tuning

If you manage to screw up any of #2-4 then you will have an audio system which is far below its potential. In the situation of using top-shelf drivers; if you have them playing outside of their intended passband, at power levels that are wrong, and in an unsealed enclosure (or door) that's leaking in a way which creates cancellation, plus with no tuning or time alignment, then it will sound like trash.

If you have cheaper drivers which are selected with good THD performance within their used passband, have good QTC characteristics (as needed) in the expected enclosure / door size, have back waves sealed off, and have clean power in the amount needed for your listening preferences and without overloading the driver's thermal or mechanical capabilities, good timbre matching between all drivers, plus you have in-car resonances taken care of, and a good tune, then yes it should absolutely sound better than the "top shelf, poorly-installed" drivers.

In reality, usually, you're somewhere between the two extremes. In that zone, the largest contributor to your stereo's distortion is going to be from the speaker drivers themselves. That's a fact. This is not to say that you need expensive drivers though. You just need to know enough to select the right drivers for the passband and application you're going to use them in. If you can do that, you can find drivers that do what they need to do well, for an "affordable" price.

Will two perfectly executed installations, one entry-level and one top-shelf level both sound the same? Absolutely not. The top shelf one will sound better. Obviously. But the differences will be much more subtle than expected, and you might not think it's worth the 3-10x price difference. But that's the difference between the hobbyists who are chasing that last 5-10% and are willing to pay top dollar to gain a little bit more perfection for their system.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Hi all, a little bit of an update and maybe there will be some advice as I start this, meaning I have the Dayton DSP on the way.

Things have changed and tyvm to ToNasty as those pioneer tweeters were very nasty after I listen to them by themselves. Good grief they were absolutely horrible.


In less than a week I will be adding the Dayton and I grabbed the BT dongle as well.

3-way active

HU-Kenwood KDC X-702

Midbass- HAT Clarus

Midrange and Tweeter are now JBL Power series P560c set.

Dayton Audio DSP

Rockford Fosgate P500X2-For the 6.5 woofer
Rockville RXD-F30 -For the JBL midrange and tweeter

As an aside that Rockville, for the money is punching above its weight imho, gets quite hot to the touch in this 40 degree heat but has not shut down once.


Pioneer Champions series 10 inch sub that I have front firing into the cabin and Soundstream nano powering it.


My car is a Dodge Dart and absolutely love the doors for speaker install 'seriously a sealed enclosure' and I really doubled down on that aspect and I'm happy with it.

I have the Clarus on 2 rings of mdf completely in the cabin area. 'Is there a better material 'harder' that I should be using to raise the Clarus from the door? Maybe birch wood or something like that.

Being a commuter car I am not overly concerned with how things look, more interested in the sound.

On that note I built the dash up slightly and made the 5 1/4 inch JBL fit in there nicely with the tweets beside them angled towards the drivers seat.

I thought about front facing pods for the tweeters and mid-range but too much work and money as what I want would require custom built ones as very little was available in my current price range. Sloping windshield limits options as well.

I realize alot of this is down to what the user likes to hear in his or her music, I'm sure I speak for a lot of use when I say I listen to certain albums and songs more because yes I like them but I like even more how they sound in the car.

I have the Clarus band-passed at 70hz to 800hz

They are passed this way mostly because the cheapest passive band-pass crossover I could find was the parts express one listed on the first page for the mid-range, 800hz to 5000hz

I had also thought that the Clarus playing such a small range might perform 'better' on account of less frequencies going to it.

Somebody told me though and it makes sense that its more about the excursion of the woofer that sets its limits.


I guess if I like the sound with these frequencies maybe just leave as is with the Dayton DSP added and play with the slopes first and EQ'ing each speaker?

Well I guess I would adjust the tweeter and mid-range a little, I imagine that JBL should play down to 4500 at least, maybe do that and ther slopes?
 

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The two main reasons for going fully active are time alignment and EQ. Time alignment alone can make a system sound so much better and is absolutely mandatory to achieve maximum SQ.

That being said I have experience in both a 2-way and 3-way. The 2-way in my Sentra sounds superb and got 1st place in both classes a few years ago at an event.The Terrain I did started as a 2-way and did not sound as good as my Sentra so we decided to try a 3-way instead,bringing the tweeters out and aimed at the driver's head.This made a tremendous difference in the response.

As a professional installer told me more than once,every vehicle is different and requires different techniques to sound good.You have to start somewhere and then build from there.My advice is that once the vehicle sounds really good then just leave it at that and stop.I haven't touched my Sentra in a few years because it sounds fantastic and there is no reason to keep doing more and searching.Remember this,addiction is never satisfied.
 

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OP: where in Canada are you?
 

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The two main reasons for going fully active are time alignment and EQ. Time alignment alone can make a system sound so much better and is absolutely mandatory to achieve maximum SQ.

That being said I have experience in both a 2-way and 3-way. The 2-way in my Sentra sounds superb and got 1st place in both classes a few years ago at an event.The Terrain I did started as a 2-way and did not sound as good as my Sentra so we decided to try a 3-way instead,bringing the tweeters out and aimed at the driver's head.This made a tremendous difference in the response.

As a professional installer told me more than once,every vehicle is different and requires different techniques to sound good.You have to start somewhere and then build from there.My advice is that once the vehicle sounds really good then just leave it at that and stop.I haven't touched my Sentra in a few years because it sounds fantastic and there is no reason to keep doing more and searching.Remember this,addiction is never satisfied.
I guess I can ask this question here because it’s related to the topic but what two way combo did you run in your Sienna? I have my Sienna apart now and I’m trying to decide if I want to keep it two way or go three way.

Thanks
 

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Mines a Sentra,not a Sienna
 

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Mines a Sentra,not a Sienna
Ahh, I see that now, sorry about the missed detail there. I guess this answers my question.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
OP: where in Canada are you?

Hi there, I am in the GTA area of Ontario, Oshawa in particular.

Just installed the Dayton DSP and have serious hiss up front and no sound at all.

I have done most of what I have come across online so far this morning and nothing.

I have the midbass, midrange and tweeters on input channels 1-2 going to output to the 3 amps for them.

Then on input 3-4 I have the sub amp and it out puts to channel 7-8.

Kind of stumped.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
The two main reasons for going fully active are time alignment and EQ. Time alignment alone can make a system sound so much better and is absolutely mandatory to achieve maximum SQ.

That being said I have experience in both a 2-way and 3-way. The 2-way in my Sentra sounds superb and got 1st place in both classes a few years ago at an event.The Terrain I did started as a 2-way and did not sound as good as my Sentra so we decided to try a 3-way instead,bringing the tweeters out and aimed at the driver's head.This made a tremendous difference in the response.

As a professional installer told me more than once,every vehicle is different and requires different techniques to sound good.You have to start somewhere and then build from there.My advice is that once the vehicle sounds really good then just leave it at that and stop.I haven't touched my Sentra in a few years because it sounds fantastic and there is no reason to keep doing more and searching.Remember this,addiction is never satisfied.

Absolutely agree and the sound was pretty good but I figured adding in a dsp can only lead to as good as I will get as I had no plans of going further into the money pit:)
 

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Maybe I misread but You are using a really big midrange 5 1/4” if so I would change those to 3”.
In a 3 way I would not run the midbass up to 800hz! Let the midbass be midbass. Lower them down around 250hz.. this helps keep the lower vocals out of the midbass speakers.
Try maybe 80hz -250 or 300hz
Run a 3 or 4” mid in the door panel if possible 300-3000hz there is many options like scanspeak on Madisound and parts express.

do you have a pillars? The little black triangle by the window and rearview mirror? If so get
276057
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Maybe I misread but You are using a really big midrange 5 1/4” if so I would change those to 3”.
In a 3 way I would not run the midbass up to 800hz! Let the midbass be midbass. Lower them down around 250hz.. this helps keep the lower vocals out of the midbass speakers.
Try maybe 80hz -250 or 300hz
Run a 3 or 4” mid in the door panel if possible 300-3000hz there is many options like scanspeak on Madisound and parts express.

do you have a pillars? The little black triangle by the window and rearview mirror? If so get View attachment 276057

I had got the Dayton and put it in and thats what I set the band-pass for the midbass to 75hz-250hz

I had it set the way I did because the only passive crossover I could fine was an 800hz to 5000hz for the midrange.

Now with the DSP I have 75hz-250hz-midbass, 250hz-4500hz-midrange, 4500hz-2200hz-tweeter


I understand your substitutions but for varying reasons I have to make work what I have already.

I doubt it will overwhelm you but I think you would be surprised how well the 5 1/4 work for me and what I like to hear.


But alas I have another issue, now I get no sound at all through the DSP, it must be a setting in the software as I know the connections are fine.
 

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I had got the Dayton and put it in and thats what I set the band-pass for the midbass to 75hz-250hz

I had it set the way I did because the only passive crossover I could fine was an 800hz to 5000hz for the midrange.

Now with the DSP I have 75hz-250hz-midbass, 250hz-4500hz-midrange, 4500hz-2200hz-tweeter


I understand your substitutions but for varying reasons I have to make work what I have already.

I doubt it will overwhelm you but I think you would be surprised how well the 5 1/4 work for me and what I like to hear.


But alas I have another issue, now I get no sound at all through the DSP, it must be a setting in the software as I know the connections are fine.
I started out with the Dayton dsp. I’m trying to remember what can cause no sound because I had that happen..
Have you went in and made sure nothing is muted?
 

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I've personally found that 2" -> 3.5" speakers just aren't good at playing frequencies below 400hz. Yes, they will play them - and they might even look normal on measurements, but you can actually feel and hear 250hz, for example, from a 6.5", 6"x9" or 8" midbass speaker at higher volumes, whereas you can only hear 250hz from a much smaller speaker. I've played with all sorts of different crossover points in my setup (6x9 midbass speakers in doors and different 2", 2.5", 3" and 3.5" speakers in the dash) - and am finding that 500hz seems to be the optimal crossover freq between the midbass and and much smaller dash speakers - at least for me and my preferences. Everyone is different though.

I like a "powerful-sounding" midbass and to me, playing lower freqs like some of those under 400hz from the smaller speakers just doesn't give me that "full" sound that I like.

Just something to think about and experiment with. When you go active, you have the opportunity to experiment with different xover freqs relatively quickly and easily to find which you like the best.
 

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I had got the Dayton and put it in and thats what I set the band-pass for the midbass to 75hz-250hz

I had it set the way I did because the only passive crossover I could fine was an 800hz to 5000hz for the midrange.

Now with the DSP I have 75hz-250hz-midbass, 250hz-4500hz-midrange, 4500hz-2200hz-tweeter


I understand your substitutions but for varying reasons I have to make work what I have already.

I doubt it will overwhelm you but I think you would be surprised how well the 5 1/4 work for me and what I like to hear.


But alas I have another issue, now I get no sound at all through the DSP, it must be a setting in the software as I know the connections are fine.
I think that some of the Daytons have the inputs (or maybe it's the outputs?) mislabeled. Do a few searches for more details (unless someone else knows off-hand and can post it here). That could certainly cause you some grief if they are mislabeled.
 

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The wire colors on the connector,if you're using high leve,l are actually backwards. White and grey are REAR left and right with green and purple being front. That might help?


Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #40
The wire colors on the connector,if you're using high leve,l are actually backwards. White and grey are REAR left and right with green and purple being front. That might help?


Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

Found a post on a F150 and this dsp.

Nowhere in the manual does it say to send the remote wire from the head unit to the dsp remote in and then from the remote out on the dsp send it to the 4 amps.

I should have noticed that on my own but distinctly remember a thread where someone said if using rca all you need on 3 wires from the wiring harness, ground, power and remote out.


Still an unacceptable amount of white noise up front.

I suspect a good portion of it is related to gain settings as the amps were matched to my head units 5v outputs and output on the dsp is capped at 3.5v.

Would this be correct?

I also just learned that having a single ground point for all the amps is also important.

So I ordered a distribution block and will find a main bolt in my trunk somewhere.
 
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