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Got the trinity's...cute little guys....thanks!

Latest update....some of the speakers sound better than others...there, that should satisfy some for now :D.

Maybe I should say amps, so a 20 page debate would ensue and people would have something to do....lol.
Watch it there bud, they don't like being called cute, they are men, small men, but never the less MEN:D:p;)

Glad you got them.
 

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Discussion Starter #282
Thanks to you and your "crew" for taking this on. I'm very interested to read through your findings. And yes, TAKE YOUR TIME!! I'd much rather wait another couple of weeks for the most accurate testing possible instead of quick/inaccurate results I can have tomorrow.

Zach
I will also let you guys know we have learned a ton already and the test parameters are ever changing as we learn the best possible way to test all of these speakers to deliver the most useful results.

We have realized just how daunting of task this is and why many have contacted us to "warn" us as well as offer tremendous support and help with the most common advice being "don't expect to succeed and back out". Well, it is not in my nature to give up, but now I do see why this advice was given.

We have a plan to conquer the "Mt. Everest" of testing. I just hope we don't need the rescue helicopter before we reach the summit.
 

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Here's what I'm expecting ...

There will be those in the audience with "brand bias" ... brands they just "love", or brands they just "hate" ... who might be upset or disappointed with the results. Naturally, they will cry foul, and find fault with the testing procedure ... even though everyone had ample time to make suggestions, and critique the test methodology weeks ago ... before the results were in :cool:
 

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they are men, small men, but never the less MEN:D:p;)
they prefer the term 'little people'.

I will also let you guys know we have learned a ton already and the test parameters are ever changing as we learn the best possible way to test all of these speakers to deliver the most useful results.
out of everything, I'm most interested in seeing the wt3 results.
 

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Discussion Starter #285
Watch it there bud, they don't like being called cute, they are men, small men, but never the less MEN:D:p;)

Glad you got them.
I meant cute in a bulldog sort of way....not a chiwawa sort of way...lol.

Oh, and yeah, what Bikinpunk said....I am using class A/B because all class D amps sound terrible and will be the death of audiophile sound! (Was that harsh enough to start a long debate???).....oh, and all HU sound the same/different and all expensive equipment is automatically better/worse than less expensive...and so forth and so on....lol :D.
 

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Discussion Starter #286
Here's what I'm expecting ...

There will be those in the audience with "brand bias" ... brands they just "love", or brands they just "hate" ... who might be upset or disappointed with the results. Naturally, they will cry foul, and find fault with the testing procedure ... even though everyone had ample time to make suggestions, and critique the test methodology weeks ago ... before the results were in :cool:
When I post the results....I will be the 1st to cry foul....lol!
 

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Discussion Starter #287 (Edited)
Ok guys....there has been some major changes to the test parameters that I would like to share to make sure everyone is okay (well, I don't really care if everyone is okay, but most). We have talked with many forum members regarding these changes and I thought I would post for everyone else to comment and express any objections.

*We have realized that this test is impossible to implement properly inside a car and frankly each car makes the speakers sound worse, just in a little different way. So, we are using the home, which would be the best testing environment we have easily accessible.

*We discussed in great length how in reality speakers would be utilized in a car. Most, if not all people, would either use an IB installation or small sealed enclosure in a vehicle. A medium to large sealed enclosure is just not feasible. With that said, using the WinISD program, all 18 speakers we have fit in either the small box or IB configuration. So, we have a large sealed box to act as an IB (.30 cu feet) for the drivers that perform well in IB and we are using a small sealed enclosure (.05 cu feet - using the mean, mode, median, and range to determine size) for the drivers that model better for small sealed.

*We are mounting the enclosures to baffles that are 3/4" thick and is 32" by 48".

*We are changing the frequency range. We originally tried the range at 250-5K with 36dB slope and changed right away to 250-6.3K with 12dB slope. Well, didn't work so good. We came to realize that if the speakers are doing what they are supposed to be doing...it will sound like ass (this realization has been confirmed in the last 2 days by several industry people). Any one speaker in your system would if it is playing only a certain passband. If anyone does not believe us, try listening to your mid range only between those frequencies. We played around and opened up the speakers to 16K and found the mid range part of the speaker to be much more pleasing even on speakers with a recommended frequency range much much lower and most importantly, we were now able to hear the speaker image, have depth, etc, etc. After again talking with many, it seems that 2nd and 3rd order harmonics are revealed. Now, this basically allows us to better tell if the speaker is doing all the "things" it is supposed to be doing (imaging, depth, width, staging, clarity etc.). We will not be looking at the extension and if the speaker can play high frequencies such as cymbals, etc., but just the midrange portion of the speaker. Tonality will be commented on, but will be a very minor factor as tonality can be corrected with an equalizer. Any speaker that does everything it should in the frequency range will still be doing what it should if you change the passband to add a tweeter. This is the only way to hear what we need to to be able to tell if the speaker is doing everything as it should and present usable results without adding other speakers (such as tweeters) into the mix.

*Also, I believe my last count is 17 or 18 pairs. We will be using scoring sheets based on various factors. When we post the results, the write up will include lots of info on each driver, but we are going to refuse to rank them 1-17 or 18. We will instead be classifying them in groups based on our internal scoring system. I just can rank 1 speaker above another because it won/lost by 1 or 2 points. We will allow all testers to name their overall favorite based on the results and possibly which one they would purchase taking the cost factor into it.

Please post any questions and if you do not like these new parameters and want your speakers pulled from the test...now is the time to speak up. All this learned information has taken lots of time to discover and process and we will be hoping to perform the test with these new parameters sometime within the next 2 weekends.
 

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Ok guys....there has been some major changes to the test parameters that I would like to share to make sure everyone is okay (well, I don't really care if everyone is okay, but most). We have talked with many forum members regarding these changes and I thought I would post for everyone else to comment and express any objections.

*We have realized that this test is impossible to implement properly inside a car and frankly each car makes the speakers sound worse, just in a little different way. So, we are using the home, which would be the best testing environment we have easily accessible.

*We discussed in great length how in reality speakers would be utilized in a car. Most, if not all people, would either use an IB installation or small sealed enclosure in a vehicle. A medium to large sealed enclosure is just not feasible. With that said, using the WinISD program, all 18 speakers we have fit in either the small box or IB configuration. So, we have a large sealed box to act as an IB (.30 cu feet) for the drivers that perform well in IB and we are using a small sealed enclosure (.05 cu feet - using the mean, mode, median, and range to determine size) for the drivers that model better for small sealed.

*We are mounting the enclosures to baffles that are 3/4" thick and is 32" by 48".

*We are changing the frequency range. We originally tried the range at 250-5K with 36dB slope and changed right away to 250-6.3K with 12dB slope. Well, didn't work so good. We came to realize that if the speakers are doing what they are supposed to be doing...it will sound like ass (this realization has been confirmed in the last 2 days by several industry people). Any one speaker in your system would if it is playing only a certain passband. If anyone does not believe us, try listening to your mid range only between those frequencies. We played around and opened up the speakers to 16K and found the mid range part of the speaker to be much more pleasing even on speakers with a recommended frequency range much much lower and most importantly, we were now able to hear the speaker image, have depth, etc, etc. After again talking with many, it seems that 2nd and 3rd order harmonics are revealed. Now, this basically allows us to better tell if the speaker is doing all the "things" it is supposed to be doing (imaging, depth, width, staging, clarity etc.). We will not be looking at the extension and if the speaker can play high frequencies such as cymbals, etc., but just the midrange portion of the speaker. Tonality will be commented on, but will be a very minor factor as tonality can be corrected with an equalizer. Any speaker that does everything it should in the frequency range will still be doing what it should if you change the passband to add a tweeter. This is the only way to hear what we need to to be able to tell if the speaker is doing everything as it should and present usable results without adding other speakers (such as tweeters) into the mix.

*Also, I believe my last count is 17 or 18 pairs. We will be using scoring sheets based on various factors. When we post the results, the write up will include lots of info on each driver, but we are going to refuse to rank them 1-17 or 18. We will instead be classifying them in groups based on our internal scoring system. I just can rank 1 speaker above another because it won/lost by 1 or 2 points. We will allow all testers to name their overall favorite based on the results and possibly which one they would purchase taking the cost factor into it.

Please post any questions and if you do not like these new parameters and want your speakers pulled from the test...now is the time to speak up. All this learned information has taken lots of time to discover and process and we will be hoping to perform the test with these new parameters sometime within the next 2 weekends.
My first comment is that I understand why you're opening up the top limit of the frequency range. HOWEVER ... a couple points need to be mentioned.

1. The upper range of some midrange drivers may show some cone resonance or breakup. Listening without a low-pass, or notch, may sound pretty bad (fatiguing, irritating, excessively exaggerated treble). And yes, these resonances will "amplify" the higher frequency distortion products of the midrange band. I've listened to Seas Excel drivers on-axis, with no low-pass or break-up control ... it ain't pretty.

2. Just for clarification ... if the midrange drivers are distorting, any filters in the path before the driver won't help, or "mask" the distortion. The driver's distortion will still be radiated, even with active or passive filters ahead of the driver. You can limit fundamentals, of course, that aggravate non-linearities and excite cone resonances with filtering ... but the filtering does not attenuate the distortion products created by the driver.

Good luck ... this ain't no small task :(
 

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Discussion Starter #289
My first comment is that I understand why you're opening up the top limit of the frequency range. HOWEVER ... a couple points need to be mentioned.

1. The upper range of some midrange drivers may show some cone resonance or breakup. Listening without a low-pass, or notch, may sound pretty bad (fatiguing, irritating, excessively exaggerated treble). And yes, these resonances will "amplify" the higher frequency distortion products of the midrange band. I've listened to Seas Excel drivers on-axis, with no low-pass or break-up control ... it ain't pretty.

2. Just for clarification ... if the midrange drivers are distorting, any filters in the path before the driver won't help, or "mask" the distortion. The driver's distortion will still be radiated, even with active or passive filters ahead of the driver. You can limit fundamentals, of course, that aggravate non-linearities and excite cone resonances with filtering ... but the filtering does not attenuate the distortion products created by the driver.

Good luck ... this ain't no small task :(
We are going to try to live with the ear fatigue due to the fact that it is almost impossible to tell if the speakers are doing what they are supposed to in the limited low pass filter of 5K or even 6.3K. It is also hard to tell if they sound "bad" because they are bad or because they are actually doing what they are supposed to and in that passband they should sound bad!
 

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We are going to try to live with the ear fatigue due to the fact that it is almost impossible to tell if the speakers are doing what they are supposed to in the limited low pass filter of 5K or even 6.3K. It is also hard to tell if they sound "bad" because they are bad or because they are actually doing what they are supposed to and in that passband they should sound bad!
Honestly I do listen to my speakers one set at a time when tuning. just midbass. just tweeters. and so on. At times listening does become somewhat boring but you get a real taste of the way the speaker is suppose to be played, I would not say that they sound like ass maybe add a tweeter for pleasure lol. So I do understand where you are coming from EITHER WAY I LOOK FORWARD TO A REVIEW OF WHATEVER you got. ;) I know you are doing the best you can with what you got, I am FOREVER patient, so no rush from me.

Soon as I dump some equipment you will have some paypal money to help with some of the cost.
 

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Latest update....some of the speakers sound better than others...


I knew it! Im no brand whore but I've been running Some speakers for years now and have always known that Others speakers really suck in comparison.

The Some speakers will be a perfect match to thier new line of placebo amps. Tests which I am not at liberty to make public at this stage of development clearly show that nothing I have written on the subject matter is in anyway useful. That being said, I await the analytical test results to support this .
 

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*We discussed in great length how in reality speakers would be utilized in a car. Most, if not all people, would either use an IB installation or small sealed enclosure in a vehicle. A medium to large sealed enclosure is just not feasible. With that said, using the WinISD program, all 18 speakers we have fit in either the small box or IB configuration. So, we have a large sealed box to act as an IB (.30 cu feet) for the drivers that perform well in IB and we are using a small sealed enclosure (.05 cu feet - using the mean, mode, median, and range to determine size) for the drivers that model better for small sealed.
Agreed
bikinpunk said:
For in car testing, I’d go with whatever makes the most sense for you. Honestly, I’d try putting them in free-air and not worry about an enclosure. You’re going to get the general idea of what the enclosure does when you test it outside the car. Plus, we know that car’s geometry will vary, as will aiming. If you put it in the car and try to do enclosures, etc you’re talking about some SERIOUS headaches. Especially if you start trying to do on/off axis, etc.
For simplicity, I say free-air in the car, maybe on axis and 90* off axis… no in betweens. Just to get a very general idea.

*Also, I believe my last count is 17 or 18 pairs. We will be using scoring sheets based on various factors. When we post the results, the write up will include lots of info on each driver, but we are going to refuse to rank them 1-17 or 18. We will instead be classifying them in groups based on our internal scoring system. I just can rank 1 speaker above another because it won/lost by 1 or 2 points. We will allow all testers to name their overall favorite based on the results and possibly which one they would purchase taking the cost factor into it.
I agree again. Posting your results, to me, is a bit more pertinent than listing what you think sounds the best in order. It's just going to be too hard to pick out minute details between all drivers, considering you have 18 of them.
 

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I don't really understand why extend the range past 6.3K. I think this will greatly affect the results and will shift the results towards the speakers designed to be full range versus a true midrange. Why not just pick out a tweeter use it to above 6.3K with all of the mids? That way you would still have the higher frequency clues but you wil not be asking midrange speakers to produce frequencies for which they were never intended.

To your point about it sounding like ass 250Hz to 6.3KHz, I agree. But if you do use active crossovers in a 3-way setup, which most of us will be doing, none of the so called "Clues and Ambience" will be coming from the mids. They will be coming from the tweeters. Most of us will still be crossing them 6.3K or below just like in your original plan.

I appreciate all that you guys are doing but I just think running the mids full range is a poor comparison since it is not indicative of real world use. Listen to them in the intended range and let the chips fall where they may.
 

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^ some people are going to try to use the 3" midranges as widebanders. I can guarantee it. Not saying I would, but I know that there will be those who will.

Then again, I agree with your point that most won't be using that wide of bandwidth. It's a total toss up. That's why doing things like this is so tough.
 

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I don't really understand why extend the range past 6.3K. I think this will greatly affect the results and will shift the results towards the speakers designed to be full range versus a true midrange. Why not just pick out a tweeter use it to above 6.3K with all of the mids? That way you would still have the higher frequency clues but you wil not be asking midrange speakers to produce frequencies for which they were never intended.

To your point about it sounding like ass 250Hz to 6.3KHz, I agree. But if you do use active crossovers in a 3-way setup, which most of us will be doing, none of the so called "Clues and Ambience" will be coming from the mids. They will be coming from the tweeters. Most of us will still be crossing them 6.3K or below just like in your original plan.

I appreciate all that you guys are doing but I just think running the mids full range is a poor comparison since it is not indicative of real world use. Listen to them in the intended range and let the chips fall where they may.
I also understand and that would be the other option, I am just afraid people will cry foul adding in a Dyn tweet to the mix. We did some light listening of widbanders and true mids and the only added benefit of the widebanders was the high frequency information. The midrange frequencies sounded great on the true mids and well as the widebanders at the 16K level. This actually shocked the hell out of us and we made many calls to find out why. I guarantee from our light test, this will NOT sway the results toward the widebanders what so ever.
 

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If you simply post the frequency response graphs, we would be able to tell which can play high and which are true midranges, right? :confused:

Why not pair the mids with an "average" set of mids and tweeters? The Dyns would be the ideal, although (speaking in generalities), most people who want a 3 way with Dyns would be running 3 Dyns...

Sounds like you guys have your work cut out :surprised:
 

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Did Don "Buzzman" send any PHASS speakers? I'm too lazy right now to read the whole thread...
No, I did not. We don't have a dedicated 4" midrange yet. At my request one is in development and should be finalized by mid summer. The 4" full-range I use for my mid-range application was not, in my opinion, going to fit the parameters of this test, and I had no desire to drive around without it. :)
 
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