[Mike0000]

Hi there I’m new here and this is my first post but I am a long time lurker. I’m not new to car audio but I haven’t done much in recent years. I use to be into SPL stuff but now I’m trying to get into more sound quality type stuff these days. So I would like to start my first sound quality build. First off the vehicle in question is a 1986 Toyota 4Runner turbo. This vehicle is going to be a full overland build and restoration. I intend to live out of the vehicle for months at a time while traveling the country, which means I am going to have it packed full of gear and electronics smashed in every corner. So space is of the essence. I listen to mainly rock and rap music but I do listen to just about anything.

The vehicle originally came with 2 front 4 inch speakers mounted in the lower dash and 2 6.5 powered rear speakers mounted just behind the rear seats on the sides. Pictures of the interior included.

My plan is that I’m thinking on doing a custom install on the front 2 doors of a pair of 2 way components mounted with mid bass in the lower front of the panel and the tweeter mounted in the upper front of the panel. A pair of 2 way components or mid bass where the factory rear speakers are. 1 subwoofer mounted into one of the rear quarter panels. A 4 channel and mono amp or a 5 channel amp mounted behind the quarter panel plastic on the opposite side of the sub.


What I have already for equipment

*Pioneer DMH-C5500NEX
This is the one with the remote display because the radio is in a worth less place down near the floor from the factory. I needed the display higher so that’s no problem there.

*digital designs SL-710. I had from a previous build. I intended on mounting it in a custom box in the quarter panel like what is done in these pictures.

*rockford fosgate PBR500x1. I may use this to power the sub and it is compact. It’s from a previous project.

Here’s my questions.

*for front components I am thinking image dynamics IDQ 65CS. I’ve been impressed with image dynamics in the past and I need a slim set of front components. My door isn’t very deep due to the fact it was never designed to have speakers in it. Unless someone has a better components in mind?

*rear spears ? Components? Or mid bass for rear fill ? Or nothing? They are going to be mounted in the factory rear cargo area right behind the rear seats.

*which mid bass would you suggest? Or just buy a component set matching the front and just use the woofer? If so would you use the cross over that came with the set ?

*I can possibly mount the rear speakers on the sides behind the front seats, in front of the rear seats. Would mounting them there be better than than the cargo area?

*should I run the rear mid bass in box’s or just open in the quarter panel?

*sub box material? Wood or fiberglass? Or a possible combination of the two? it will be sealed and like I said it will be mounted into the rear quarter panel. Also see the one made out layers of wood in the pictures. Anyone ever tried that?

*Suggestions on a 4channel AB amp that does 150 rms at 4 ohms ? Needs to be fairly compact. It will need to be hidden with no air flow so it should probably have a fan built in.

*suggestions on 5 channel amp same thing with at least 500-800 rms sub channel at 1 ohm?

*will the pbr500x1 I have over heat if mounted with no air flow? I think it ran hot from what I remember.

*use amp cross overs or head unit ? Roughly what would you set them at?

*should I have a dsp? Space and power are fairly limited. If so what kind ? There will be no access to adjust it other than on install.

*if there were a dsp would you still use the speaker crossovers? Would you still use the cross overs or adjustments on the head unit or amps?

*batt cap or capacitor? I will be running dual batteries with a battery isolator for all the other accessories (refrigerator/lights/inverter/etc) and a big alternator.

*any other suggestions you can think of that I haven’t ?

Sorry I am aware this is allot of questions. Thanks in advance.

 

[j4gates]

Welcome to the board. I had an '88 4Runner in college. You definitely picked a challenging vehicle for SQ.

What I remember most is that there is a lot of plastic, and it all likes to rattle...back panels, center console, even the plastic trim on the base of the seats. You will need to think about sound treatment as a priority. Hopefully that's a primary part of the restoration planning.

The door cards are also pretty flimsy (mostly pressed paper/cardboard). I had installed 4 inch RF Punch components (mids in the stock dash location and tweeters up on the base of the A pillar) and realized it didn't have enough meat so I removed the map pocket and added a surface mounted enclosure for a shallow midbass. Had I known how flimsy the door card was I probably would have developed a different plan, but that was college days working on a car while living in a dorm...you go with what you got.

Due to the space constraints and a door not designed to hold a midbass, I'd consider 2 things differently. First, evaluate if you can install a midbass in the kick panel. My 4Runner was a stick shift and I'm pretty tall, so that was a no-go, but you might have better luck and that would be my preference for SQ. Second, I would look at a shallow mount component set. These Morel Virtus Nano Carbon 62 would be a target set. There have been a couple installers on this site who have used these with good results and you could be creative with placement, especially if you find you need to use the door location. Could even cut a whole in the door inner skin and create and aperiodic vent. Morel makes great SQ gear too.

Since you're probably going to have a lot of gear in the back, I would hold off on rear speakers unless you're intending to have the top off/back open at times to listen outside the vehicle. Having extra speakers for outside listening would help in that case, but are not needed for SQ.

And if you're looking for SQ, I don't know how you would do it without DSP, especially if your install locations are compromises. You can get loud and decent sound without one, but SQ is more about creating a realistic soundstage that is accurate. That can only be achieved with proper time alignment and equalization capabilities of a DSP. There are plenty of SQ manufacturers who have DSP/amplifier combos. Here are a couple examples: Mosconi One 6|10 DSP or HELIX P SIX DSP ULTIMATE. You could go with an all-in-one and power everything in a single box or you can puchase separate DSP and amplifier pieces to spread everything out. You really just need to research what you want and figure out where it will go along with the space limitations you'll have for each piece in the location you choose.

 

[Mike0000]

Thank you j4gates for the reply. I will say first of all I definitely did pick a difficult vehicle to start with. The interior in these trucks is very cheap and brittle. I should of mentioned earlier that yes there will be plenty of sound deadening going on and insulation jammed in every area I can. I’ve had about a dozen of these old toyota trucks and 4runners. This one is the most premium one that was available at the time. The door panels are actually molded plastic on this one. They stick off the door about 1.5 inches so there is some room in between unlike the ones with the cardboard door panels. I also do plan on trimming whatever is needed for metal in the door. Those morel speakers are pretty slick. Thinnest ones I have ever seen. Definitely worth checking those out. For the rear panels and tailgate I will be making some custom Cnc aluminum panels to replace the factory side panels and interior tailgate. I didn’t know they made dsp amp combos either so that’s something to look into. Have you seen one with a higher wattage sub channel? Also I will not be able to access the dsp easily. Is there one that can be controlled remotely or with a phone app or something?

 

[j4gates]

Sounds like you have a very good baseline of knowledge on the vehicle. I'm not the expert on all the brands' offerings, but I don't think any of the major manufacturers offer a DSP/amp combo with the sub power you're seeking. Good thing, though, is they typically offer additional channels of processing that you can use to control external amps. If you're concerned with heat from your RF amp, there are numerous small footprint class D offerings available in that range. You could also look at a standalone DSP and something like the Mosconi Pro 5/30 if you're focused on a powerful 5-channel amp with class AB, plus it has a built-in fan.

Most DSPs also have some sort of control accessory that is remotely mounted. Helix has 2 different ones; the larger Director and smaller Conductor. Mosconi and others have similar. These offer the ability to adjust tuning presets, master and sub volume, and some other functions depending on the model. Tuning (EQ, time alignment, etc.) on most is accomplished via laptop, which requires a USB connection accessible somewhere. There are some manufacturers who are starting to use app-based tuning. I have no experience with any of those, but some others on here may be able to provide input.

If you have the time, consider starting a build log. A lot of people would be interested in the work, to include the vehicle restoration piece.

 

[Mike0000]

Yes I have all kinds of knowledge of these early toyota’s I’ve had all kinds from rock crawlers to slammed street trucks. I will definitely do a build log at some point. I’m in the middle of many things right now and this is definitely a slow moving project but at some point you will get to see it. So let me ask you this. What can a dsp do for me that this pioneer head unit cannot? It has crossover settings, time corrections, eq and all that good stuff. I have always thought that dsp’s were for factory radios that have no options like that. Also I was browsing online and seen the AudioControl D-4.800, it looks like it would fit what I am trying to do. It has enough power and has an additional output for a sub amp. Also it’s relatively small. Definitely a little cheaper. No fan that I see tho. Any input on that? I’m really digging those morel speakers. I just have a hard time believing that the mid bass would match up to a regular set of components seeing that it is insanely thin.

 

[MythosDreamLab]

We had a 1989 4-Runner "Limited" for 17 years, it was my wife's daily driver (I got the BMW..lol), but as reliable as it was, it was not the quietest.

I'm thinking you need TONS of sound deadening and BIG Amps and LOUD Speakers to overcome the inherent road noise..

Best wishes and hopefully you can do a build thread as I'd be interested in following your progress...

 

[NW JLUR]

In some of that area of pickups and 4 runners, don’t remember the exact years anymore, you could space the window track bolt back. Giving you a little more mounting depth. You couldn’t go to far or the window would bind. As suggested before you could remove the map pocket and make a new panel.

 

[j4gates]

So let me ask you this. What can a dsp do for me that this pioneer head unit cannot? It has crossover settings, time corrections, eq and all that good stuff. I have always thought that dsp’s were for factory radios that have no options like that. Also I was browsing online and seen the AudioControl D-4.800, it looks like it would fit what I am trying to do. It has enough power and has an additional output for a sub amp. Also it’s relatively small. Definitely a little cheaper. No fan that I see tho. Any input on that?

A DSP's main advantage over a head unit is the processing power, which is more important for SQ. The Pioneer has the capability to do independent time alignment for a 2-way front stage + sub in network mode, but if you ever want to add rears or upgrade to a 3-way front you'll need a DSP to do proper time alignment. The Pioneer's main disadvantage is 13 bands of global EQ. DSPs provide separate EQ for each channel (speaker) usually with around 30 bands per channel and the option to use parametric EQ to adjust each band's center frequency and Q. That helps a lot when you're attempting to tame the chaos that occurs with sound in a car based on the fact you are sitting off center in a small enclosure with plenty of reflective surfaces.

I've never used Audiocontrol's DSP/amps. I've read they have some limitations and software that perhaps is not as user friendly as other brands, but I'll let others with experience peel that one back.

 

[Mike0000]

MythosDreamLab yeah your not kidding it’s definitely a loud vehicle especially now that it going to have mud tires, off road bumpers, lights, roof rack and tons of gear mounted on the exterior to whistle and vibrate. I will definitely be doing some serious sound deadening. I do want it loud as much as I want it to sound good.

 

[Mike0000]

NW JLUR Good to know. I didn’t think of that. The window regulator is in the way so I might have to try that.

 

[Slave2myXJ]

3-way. 4" mids, or 3" if you want really low profile, in kick panels, tweeters either in kick panels or A-pillars, 8" midbasses in outside wall behind front seats. sub(s) in rear wall(s) as shown. Amp(s) under seats. Arc Audio Blackbird comes to mind for small size, or PS8-50 if you can find one.

 

[Mike0000]

j4gates. That makes more sense. I would definitely like to learn more about that audiocontrol dsp/amp. I’ll have to search here and see what else I can find out about it.

 

[Mike0000]

Slave2myXJ. That’s kinda what I am thinking too. I can’t really put any speakers in the a pillars. I have a set of pillar gauges on one side. So that’s why I was thinking the door. Would there be an advantage over the kick panel for the tweeters or the upper part of the door? Do you think there would be a big difference putting the rear mid bass between the front and rear seats vs right behind the rear seat ? I can’t really mount the amps under the seats either due to getting wet and there’s not much room either. Any suggestions on components set?

 

[NW JLUR]

Slave2myXJ. That’s kinda what I am thinking too. I can’t really put any speakers in the a pillars. I have a set of pillar gauges on one side. So that’s why I was thinking the door. Would there be an advantage over the kick panel for the tweeters or the upper part of the door? Do you think there would be a big difference putting the rear mid bass between the front and rear seats vs right behind the rear seat ? I can’t really mount the amps under the seats either due to getting wet and there’s not much room either. Any suggestions on components set?

Since you’re over landing are you keeping the rear seats or removing them for a sleeping area and/or more storage?

 

[Mike0000]

NW JLUR both. My plan is I’m going to build a sleeping platform about 12-18 inches high and remove the rear seats. The seats do fold flat but I will need the additional room where they go for more storage. So for the months that I am home I will take all of the gear and the sleeping platform out and I will put the seats back in.

 

[Slave2myXJ]

Getting the midrange as far foward as possible is the main goal. Many people mount tweeters in the kick panels and have no issues with stage height. Depending on which tweeters you get, they can be rather small and if they come with surface mount cups, very easy to move around until you find the location that works best for you.

Ideally the midbasses would be mounted in front of you, so maybe door mounted would work better for you. Spoken male voice goes pretty low, so with rear mounted midbasses crossed low to avoid being able to localize them, spoken male voice will come primarily from those rear speakers. With them mounted behind the front (edit) seats, they're close enough to being directly beside you that the distance isn't much of a factor.

I went with primarily CDT Audio drivers. The general consensus I've read is that they're good drivers for the price, and when they are on sale, even more so. They're on 50% sale this week, so I picked up ES-4 drivers to round out my install. Have a set of ES-5 and HD-3, but wanted that 4" darnit. Here's a 3-way kit w/ 6.7" midbass drivers

https://www.cdtaudio.com/main_series/es/es642i.php

Being stuck with door mounted midbasses in my install, I went overboard in surface area (4x 9.5" midbasses) in the hope that driving each with less power will limit the rattles, so my midbasses are a different brand. Bought used off this forum for less than half of MSRP. Nothing says you need to use only one brand. Here's the 4" midrange and tweeters from that kit if you choose to use a different brand for midbasses. Lots of good midbass drivers in the classified section right now...

https://www.cdtaudio.com/sep_components/midwoofers/es4.php

CDT Audio DRT-26S

Are you going to pull out all your gear and your carpet before or after you swamp it? I avoid that chit like the plague. My 30 yr old carpets smell bad enough when they get wet, can't even imagine after swamping it...

 

[NW JLUR]

Water/ moisture and mdf are not good together. You should use Baltic Burch or the equivalent and fiberglass.

 

[Mike0000]

For the record I don’t intend to be getting water inside of the cab on this truck. What I meant was I don’t want anything on the floor to get wet from wet clothes and things of that nature. It is going to be doing allot of off roading and there is always that chance of getting into water that deep but I’m not intending to at all if it can be avoided. I have a fully built rock crawler for that sort of thing. This is just for mild off road.

 

[Mike0000]

Do you guys think there would be any benefit of running 2 8 inch subwoofers in sealed box’s vs 1 10 inch shallow subwoofer in a sealed box.

 

[Mike0000]

That being said would you still not use mdf ?