[10K2HVN]

I get what you're trying to say. When i had some morel WR4's in the kick location along with the Lcy's ... playing from 300- 2.0 khz, the vocals seemed really diffused and not smack dab centered. The vocals would shift slightly from track to track. but once i moved the xover points up to 3.5 - 4 khz the vocals seemed more centered and easily localized. I'm not exactly sure why but i believe it's due to the wide dispersion of the LCY's... it'll be hard imo to get good midrange imaging with that driver. One thing i like to mention is at that time i didn't have underdash panels to stop reflection so that has to be taken in to consideration. Anyway , if you figure out a niffy way to solve this problem when you fiddle with your 2 way... let me know =]

I'm going more of a simple amplifier set up this time around and don't want to purchase another amplifier. =] And i don't believe the tubes will give me the *warmer realistic sound i want. I've auditioned a few tubes at Beach Auto Sound and imo, it didn't warm up the sound all that much. Right now i'm trying to get the set up sounding as great as possible with as little eqing as possible.

I think the vocals being diffused and the vocals shifting from track to track are two different problems.. mostly, the vocals shifting from track to track has to do more with the recording then the system.. i know some songs arent fully centered in my home system either.. the vocals being diffused its probably just install and tuning..but you seemed to solve it with a higher xover point, so that maybe just the answer...

IMO, i dont find TDB amps to be very warm..maybe a little because theyre smooth - but i find them more smooth, detailed, and lively - kinda like focal utopia midwoofers, with a smooth liquidy midrange and an slightly exagerated/rounded midbass. Small details are really brought out too - almost exagerated..! It sounds like youre actually the recording microphone, picking up every single detail. In that respect, its also lively! While details are brought out, background seems more distant - almost like a instruments and people are playing inside an empty void - but when tracks are recorded with background room-noise and/or echoes, you get a strong sense of where the walls are and how sounds reflect off of them..

thats my take on it at least... switching back to full solidstates is almost boring if it wasnt for my L18's midbass....

 

[DS-21]

IMO, i dont find TDB amps to be very warm..maybe a little because theyre smooth - but i find them more smooth, detailed, and lively <snip>

Assuming the TDB's have the same sonic character is the ur-Butler Tube Drivers (i.e. before they bought PPI), their dominant sonic characteristic is nothing but a peak at ~4kHz, the level of which is variable through the so-called "tube sound" knob. Your subjective comments about "detail" and "distant background" lead me to believe that nothing has changed. IOW, that fancy "high end" amp is nothing but a high-priced (and fairly attractive - I've always liked the form factor of the Butlers from an aesthetic POV) single-band EQ!

 

[sqkev]

Here's my take on it.

First, as a sole midrange, you won't neeed the bottom end, which means .5cube won't be needed.

Second, why not go for a pure midrange? maybe the older seas m15ch in kicks?

although I've yet to try out the lcy, but the horn loaded (perse) lcy130 seems to do okay down low and would be a perfect mate for you w18, why not?

ds-21,
ouch!!!
i don't hear the *warmth* in tubes in the 4khz, anybody else does?

 

[daitrong]

Here's my take on it.

First, as a sole midrange, you won't neeed the bottom end, which means .5cube won't be needed.

Second, why not go for a pure midrange? maybe the older seas m15ch in kicks?

although I've yet to try out the lcy, but the horn loaded (perse) lcy130 seems to do okay down low and would be a perfect mate for you w18, why not?

ds-21,
ouch!!!
i don't hear the *warmth* in tubes in the 4khz, anybody else does?

Thanks SQKEV, that's what i was hoping. I won't be crossing it that low so the bottom end won't be needed with this driver. What do you think the minimum size i can get away with btw? also, would the midrange sound a bit *congested with that specific volume?

imo, i think it would be disrepectful for me to sell it without even try to put them in and use them. Who knows it might turn out pretty nice. If not then i'll sell them and try something else.

 

[npdang]

My advice, if you don't like the LCY130 down low... as in it's too spacious and airy.. maybe semi-laid back... then try a large ribbon like say an AC g3/g1, or Fountek jp2 or 5.0. Those suckers have very strong low end that can make the sound much more aggressive and in your face.

I can get a pretty "fat" full bodied sounding midrange by keeping the 200-400hz and maybe even 800hz area boosted. The upper midrange 1-3khz Imho tends to be more of that agressive, forward sound rather than body.

 

[10K2HVN]

Assuming the TDB's have the same sonic character is the ur-Butler Tube Drivers (i.e. before they bought PPI), their dominant sonic characteristic is nothing but a peak at ~4kHz, the level of which is variable through the so-called "tube sound" knob. Your subjective comments about "detail" and "distant background" lead me to believe that nothing has changed. IOW, that fancy "high end" amp is nothing but a high-priced (and fairly attractive - I've always liked the form factor of the Butlers from an aesthetic POV) single-band EQ!

Ive had the old ones (pre-PPI and post-PPI) and the newer Tube Driver Blue's, and a couple solidstate amps.. between the older ones, Tube Driver BLUE's, non-tube amps, and full tube amps (home) all sound different to Me...

something to read...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/butler/2250.html (3 pages)

 

[DS-21]

Ive had the old ones (pre-PPI and post-PPI) and the newer Tube Driver Blue's, and a couple solidstate amps.. between the older ones, Tube Driver BLUE's, non-tube amps, and full tube amps (home) all sound different to Me...

something to read...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/butler/2250.html (3 pages)

Then learn to level-match properly, or stop buying broken amps.

Moreover, a review by a card-carrying member of the flat earth society certainly isn't going to change my mind, or that of any other thoughtful person....

 

[10K2HVN]

Then learn to level-match properly, or stop buying broken amps.

Moreover, a review by a card-carrying member of the flat earth society certainly isn't going to change my mind, or that of any other thoughtful person....

damn..i knew there was something wrong with all those amps, when i bought them brand new from authorized dealers...

and gain setting is soo hard! i think i should quit caraudio....

to make things clear, im not saying i can hear the difference between solidstate amps (ive never really tried with a switcher and such), but for me (and others - who dont believe theres a difference between SS amps) theres deffinitely a difference between SS amps and Tube amps.

 

[Derek]

damn..i knew there was something wrong with all those amps, when i bought them brand new from authorized dealers...

and gain setting is soo hard! i think i should quit caraudio....

to make things clear, im not saying i can hear the difference between solidstate amps (ive never really tried with a switcher and such), but for me (and others - who dont believe theres a difference between SS amps) theres deffinitely a difference between SS amps and Tube amps.

dummyhead.

 

[DS-21]

but for me (and others - who dont believe theres a difference between SS amps) theres deffinitely a difference between SS amps and Tube amps.

Oh, really? So you mean that the properly level-matched double-blind test between a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 (a $5000 110wpc p-p tube amp) and a Classe CA-200 (a $3000 200wpc solid state amp) in which I participated about 7 years ago turned up a statistically significant difference? Bzzt! That despite the fact that no attempts were made to limit volume levels and that they were driving Martin-Logan electrostats (Quest-Z or reQuest, don’t remember) that present a very difficult load in the treble. Both were non-broken amps, with flat FR and low distortion, so in retrospect the result was obvious given that the tubes in the SF amp had not yet been significantly degraded by use.

I don’t dislike tube amps, but I don’t have any special love for them, either. Their advantages are (often) aesthetic and (usually) snob value. Their disadvantages are that they require much more upkeep than old-line solid state or modern solid state (i.e. DSP-controlled switching amps or DAC/amps such as the TI chips used in the expensive TacT gear and the cheap Panasonic receivers) and often require speakers with much less impedance variation to pass the signal accurately than solid-state amps do. Done with a modicum of competence they are as every bit as good as any other type of competently-designed amp, but no more so.

Of course, a tube (or solid state) amp with prodigious amounts of distortion or EQ (i.e. nonflat frequency response) built in will sound different from a well-designed tube (or solid state) amp. However, I consider such an amp, no matter how expensive it is, broken. Actually, the more expensive such an amp is is the more broken I consider it to be!