Add a lithium cell or a high output alternator?

6494 Views 56 Replies 14 Participants Last post by ecobass, 3 mo ago

DasFriek

Discussion Starter · 6 mo ago

My car/audio electrical is this:
180amp alt and 2x large gel cell AGM’s and when running my lights dont flicker and it will droop too 0v-.4v by all the meters from my cars computer and a bass control that reads it.
I just installed two amps that are twice the power my old ones had. And yes everything possible is fused. So know my electrical system needs a boost.

Buy what i read i have several solutions.
A new alternator, Which is a pita as ill have to pay to get it done.
Add a JP40 lithium cell thats all self contained with a remote and im rather sure an isolator.

www.down4soundshop.com

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Buy a bigger lithium cell from Amazon as the are on sale.

with a dual lithium cell battery isolator.

lastly and its the easy way but mot the best imo is add another 12v agm Battery.

With all that info what do you suggest?

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ItsonlyaHONDA

· #2 · 6 mo ago

More batteries won't fix the lack of amperage. I used LTO lithium batteries but they were more expensive than an beefier alternator. I would honestly go the alternator route. Another route could be add a super capacitor just for your bass amps. Something like this.

www.down4soundshop.com

SB1000-75 - 12V Super Capacitor Bank, Group 75, Max Power 8,000W, 1,000 Farad

SB1000-75 - 12V Super Capacitor Bank, Group 75, Max Power 8,000W, 1,000 Farad

www.down4soundshop.com

www.down4soundshop.com

Or similar they have smaller ones and bigger ones. Just add them to your existing electrical system.

You can also build your own... but I have zero input in the know how for that subject.

DasFriek

Discussion Starter · #3 · 6 mo ago

Yes, that was an option to me. But figured id just get laughed at.
DFS has both the alternator and a superbanks at a decent price.
i put more weight on the alternator tho. Ill check them both out again.

ItsonlyaHONDA

· #4 · 6 mo ago

I will eventually do a bunch of modifications to my car including the alternator soon as my warranty expires. Still got an other year. Then 6k salt it is for me. But in other to support my sounds now I went with 2 lithiums in the back an a AGM stater battery. I used the xs-power Titan8's, A RSV and a PWR S5's. But my woltage holds steady for the most part even full tilt in traffic.

bbfoto

· #5 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

Extra batteries really only help if you want to play the system for long periods without the engine running...IOW without the alternator to supply voltage and current for the audio system.

If you don't want to repeatedly drain your battery while driving and listening to your system, make sure that you have a large enough alternator to supply all of the vehicle's electrical needs as well as your aftermarket audio system's needs.

But it is also good to have a large capacity main/starting battery with very low ESR along with the appropriate power wiring so that it can easily provide the occasional short transient millisecond bursts of power (current) that the alternator is not capable of producing.

But again, as long as the alternator provides enough current to your car and audio system without significant and repeated voltage drops, adding extra batteries just provides for longer listening sessions without the engine running. Otherwise there is really no benefit to adding extra batteries as long as you have a decent size and quality battery to begin with. And in fact, adding extra batteries will add an additional load on the alternator because now it has to keep that extra battery(ies) charged as well.

Put an ampere clamp meter on your system to see how much current it is drawing with the AC & blower fan on high, headlights on, seat heaters on, etc with the system playing bass heavy music, and make sure the alternator is capable of that output level + the vehicle's OEM needs + 20%-30% more. If not, upgrade the alternator.

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NealfromNZ

· #6 · 6 mo ago

Don’t you need to be super careful with the charging voltage for Lion batteries ? If your car is setup for an AGM battery the alternator charge voltage from my understanding is too high and will damage them and there are all kinds of risks with overcharging these batteriy types.

I won’t even use my 5a AGM cteck charger on my M3s LION (4) battery for top ups or maintenance charging.

Reactions: 2

bbfoto

· #7 · 6 mo ago

NealfromNZ said:
Don’t you need to be super careful with the charging voltage for Lion batteries ? If your car is setup for an AGM battery the alternator charge voltage from my understanding is too high and will damage them and there are all kinds of risks with overcharging these batteriy types.

I won’t even use my 5a AGM cteck charger on my M3s LION (4) battery for top ups or maintenance charging.

Yes, you do. Lead Acid and Lithium-based batteries require completely different charging voltages and charging schemes/algorithms during the various stages of charging. The vehicle's ECM is programmed with the correct charging algorithm for the OEM battery it was supplied with. Unless the Li battery has an external or internal BMS, you risk damage to it or even possible fire/explosion if it isn't charged properly. Lead Acid-based batteries are much more forgiving in regards to how they are charged.

Reactions: 1

ItsonlyaHONDA

· #8 · 6 mo ago

NealfromNZ said:
Don’t you need to be super careful with the charging voltage for Lion batteries ? If your car is setup for an AGM battery the alternator charge voltage from my understanding is too high and will damage them and there are all kinds of risks with overcharging these batteriy types.

I won’t even use my 5a AGM cteck charger on my M3s LION (4) battery for top ups or maintenance charging.

Yes, different battery topology need different care. But as long as they are isolated and you follow manufactures recommendations. I used different chargers to get the initial charge. Proper research on what you choose is key. I chose the Titan 8 cuz it met all my requirements. I can't bypass my voltage regulator so I'm limited to 14.4, my lithums (LTO) are rated 14.4 max charge rate. Then the resting voltage is practically the same as an AGM. Max charging amperage is 300A, and performs good even down to 100A charge. My alternator 130A, so it worked out good. Proper research 👌.

Reactions: 1

winkychevelle

· #9 · 6 mo ago

Pretty much you shouldn't mix any lithium with agm or flooded, you can get away with mixing lifepo4 with agm but the agms just drag the system down

Lifepo4 work fine but if your alt is charging to 14.4 the cells don't actually come into effect until 13.6v they will help slightly but they are like agm in the fact that they don't really help until voltage drops to their charged voltage.

Lto in 6s should be charged 15-16.8v but even when charging to 14.4 it has shown gains over lifepo4 cells because you are already into the storage voltage of the lto cell. Personally I think the extra degradation of the cell from being under charged makes it less than ideal. But if you can charge to at least 15v or 80% of charge or better 15.5v which is 90% they are the cells to beat.

But that requires an alt setup that allows for higher charging voltage, keep in mind that most factory systems can handle up to 15.5v but not all can some are picky.

Super/ultracaps are great when you are just slightly over the line of your draw rate. Especially for music and are a great addition to any setup

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DasFriek

Discussion Starter · #10 · 6 mo ago

The JP40 from D4S has the internals and remote to make sure the lithium cell stays within spec.
also the Amazon cell and dual battery isolator will keep it in check And made for lithium cells and voltage reader that can be moved to the driver area.

Mechman alternators come in 370A $539.10 and 240a $377.10
Still looking at Superbanks to go with it.

I dont run my system unless the engine is running, im anul aout that now as i did run my cells too low one time. Now i just waste gas.
And my i add my droop i stated was at idle, not driving so its not as bad as i would think alternator wise.

DasFriek

Discussion Starter · #11 · 6 mo ago

The are Lifepo4 cells im referring too also.
My current system charges too 14.4v

All the batteries specs ca be found here:

www.amazon.com

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ItsonlyaHONDA

· #12 · 6 mo ago

winkychevelle said:
Pretty much you shouldn't mix any lithium with agm or flooded, you can get away with mixing lifepo4 with agm but the agms just drag the system down

Lifepo4 work fine but if your alt is charging to 14.4 the cells don't actually come into effect until 13.6v they will help slightly but they are like agm in the fact that they don't really help until voltage drops to their charged voltage.

Lto in 6s should be charged 15-16.8v but even when charging to 14.4 it has shown gains over lifepo4 cells because you are already into the storage voltage of the lto cell. Personally I think the extra degradation of the cell from being under charged makes it less than ideal. But if you can charge to at least 15v or 80% of charge or better 15.5v which is 90% they are the cells to beat.

But that requires an alt setup that allows for higher charging voltage, keep in mind that most factory systems can handle up to 15.5v but not all can some are picky.

Super/ultracaps are great when you are just slightly over the line of your draw rate. Especially for music and are a great addition to any setup

Not entirely the Titan8 are LTO but I belive they are in 5s so 14.4 is max. They rest at 12.8 just like my AGM. I run mine without an isolator and have zero issues.

winkychevelle

· #13 · 6 mo ago

DasFriek said:
The JP40 from D4S has the internals and remote to make sure the lithium cell stays within spec.
also the Amazon cell and dual battery isolator will keep it in check And made for lithium cells and voltage reader that can be moved to the driver area.

Mechman alternators come in 370A $539.10 and 240a $377.10
Still looking at Superbanks to go with it.

I dont run my system unless the engine is running, im anul aout that now as i did run my cells too low one time. Now i just waste gas.
And my i add my droop i stated was at idle, not driving so its not as bad as i would think alternator wise.

You couldn't pay me to run a d4s lithium battery and the Amazon option is a low c rate backup power cell that isn't a good option for car audio.

An alt is the best thing you can do and lithium is another good option but it's usually much more expensive. A single 35ah 6s yinglong can support a crapload of power

winkychevelle

· #14 · 6 mo ago

ItsonlyaHONDA said:
Not entirely the Titan8 are LTO but I belive they are in 5s so 14.4 is max. They rest at 12.8 just like my AGM. I run mine without an isolator and have zero issues.

I don't want to get into here as I've been on this road before but the Toshiba scib cells inside the titan8 batts are 2.8v max> 2.8v×5cells=14v

Xspower sold you a battery they knew would degrade faster because if they lied it would cover a larger voltage range.

The titan8 cells also have a poorly designed internal bus bar system. But if it works for you that's all that matters.

The Toshiba scib cells are very good cells though and are capable of insanely high discharge and charge rates

the 20ah RSV line is significantly different than the 10ah prw line spec wise

I personally will stick with diy options as at least that way I know exactly what I'm getting.

ItsonlyaHONDA

· #15 · 6 mo ago

winkychevelle said:
I don't want to get into here as I've been on this road before but the Toshiba scib cells inside the titan8 batts are 2.8v max> 2.8v×5cells=14v

Xspower sold you a battery they knew would degrade faster because if they lied it would cover a larger voltage range.

The titan8 cells also have a poorly designed internal bus bar system. But if it works for you that's all that matters.

The Toshiba scib cells are very good cells though and are capable of insanely high discharge and charge rates

the 20ah RSV line is significantly different than the 10ah prw line spec wise

I personally will stick with diy options as at least that way I know exactly what I'm getting.

Yes used both RSV and the PWR, And it works perfectly for me. The DIY option would have been way cheaper but I don't have time for that. Plus I was scared of fvcking up. I also didn't want to play tetris in my trunk with cells.

It's been about a year now, and no issues what so ever. They are small and easy to install. But expensive. So I paid for convenience and ill do it again. I tested resting voltages before installing and everything checked out for me. My car charges in the 13s during the day and when the lights are on it stays at 14.4 so I'm not worried about degrading the battery. It works so 🤷🏽‍♂️

Selkec

· #16 · 6 mo ago

Don’t buy any xs power or d4s overpriced crap. They are ripping y’all off so bad it’s sickening. Get on the lithium Facebook group and actually get good info about this.

keep your oem alt and build a headway bank. They are lifePo4 You can build a 32ah bank for under 300$ easily and it will blow away that titan garbage and those weak ass 6 or 12ah xs power lithium’s. Run a headway bank and a 500farad super cap bank and you’ll be good to go. I know because I did it and so has a few of us on here. yoi Will not get good advise on this subject in this forum.

Reactions: 1

ItsonlyaHONDA

· #17 · 6 mo ago

DasFriek said:
The JP40 from D4S has the internals and remote to make sure the lithium cell stays within spec.
also the Amazon cell and dual battery isolator will keep it in check And made for lithium cells and voltage reader that can be moved to the driver area.

Mechman alternators come in 370A $539.10 and 240a $377.10
Still looking at Superbanks to go with it.

I dont run my system unless the engine is running, im anul aout that now as i did run my cells too low one time. Now i just waste gas.
And my i add my droop i stated was at idle, not driving so its not as bad as i would think alternator wise.

Do the alternator and big 3 with the batteries you already have. I don't suggest you go lithium unless you are willing to plan it out properly. They are not to be taking lightly and a mistake can cost you dearly.

Selkec

· #18 · 6 mo ago

This has 24 headway cells for only 150$

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SUPER BEAST 12v 48ah 614wh Lifepo4 - 24 Headway Cells

These modules have 24 headway cells inside and they are configured in 4s6p (12v). These modules are built to push 500a continuous. You can easily add a BMS to this module too. This is a pure power module using the best Lifepo4 power cells. Weight is around 21 lbs and the entire battery including...

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batteryhookup.com

Reactions: 2

DasFriek

Discussion Starter · #19 · 6 mo ago

Im so confused i could **** the alphabet!
Im already $900 deep in 2x agm cells, and i dont want to screw with that mad octopus.

Reactions: 1

ItsonlyaHONDA

· #20 · 6 mo ago

DasFriek said:
Im so confused i could **** the alphabet!
Im already $900 deep in 2x agm cells, and i dont want to screw with that mad octopus.

Exactly.... Keep it as is and get a HO alternator.

Reactions: 1

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