[oabeieo]

You shouldn’t be pointing it any way other than with the tip/shaft at 90 degrees to the tweeters. Any other way you will have variances between left and right due to the different angle of the mic to left and right…

you can, He proves it in this article , like a fraction of a db above 10k is the ONLY differences ….. I think that stands true for most mics
90 does work tho (but it’s not the only way)
Herb from CSL recommendation is 70-80

a tiny bit tilted down

here’s where he talk about it

Dayton EMM-6 measurement microphone, calibrated by Cross-Spectrum Labs

The CSL mics come with a 45 , I’m sure that file will work at 60 okay ….. 45 is a good number for me with a 1/2” capsule…. Works pretty dam good actually…. Better then all my other mics… using a 45 to celieng to windshields ensures everything is away from the -180 somewhere and noting at 0 (🥱)

And cars are different….. 90 , half off that is already done sometimes just by placement… where a 45 finishes it off …..

and for Dirac lower measurements a 90 is more like -20dash and 160 Ldoor and 100Rdoor approximately

And because of the compound angles in a car, you need to look at it with a 360 deg gyro fashion…. So on axis to windshield is not 0deg at all

so 90 to windshield could be like 160deg in some cases, like driver low door …..

so thinking your doing things right by holding it at 90 to roof is probably completely wrong!
(But I sure love it when I’m right and we all know it 🥰🥰😁😁😁😁😁🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳😎😎😎😎)

truth is it don’t matter !!! It don’t , even at -180 that low door midbass will be fine

the polar response is only slightly different above 10k!!! So…..you should be pointing it any which reasonable way makes you feel good! That’s a fact…. Got to go to the bank with my post.

 

[dumdum]

you can, He proves it in this article , like a fraction of a db above 10k is the ONLY differences ….. I think that stands true for most mics
90 does work tho (but it’s not the only way)
Herb from CSL recommendation is 70-80

a tiny bit tilted down

here’s where he talk about it

Dayton EMM-6 measurement microphone, calibrated by Cross-Spectrum Labs

The CSL mics come with a 45 , I’m sure that file will work at 60 okay ….. 45 is a good number for me with a 1/2” capsule…. Works pretty dam good actually…. Better then all my other mics… using a 45 to celieng to windshields ensures everything is away from the -180 somewhere and noting at 0 (🥱)

And cars are different….. 90 , half off that is already done sometimes just by placement… where a 45 finishes it off …..

and for Dirac lower measurements a 90 is more like -20dash and 160 Ldoor and 100Rdoor approximately

And because of the compound angles in a car, you need to look at it with a 360 deg gyro fashion…. So on axis to windshield is not 0deg at all

so 90 to windshield could be like 160deg in some cases, like driver low door …..

so thinking your doing things right by holding it at 90 to roof is probably completely wrong!
(But I sure love it when I’m right and we all know it 🥰🥰😁😁😁😁😁🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳😎😎😎😎)

truth is it don’t matter !!! It don’t , even at -180 that low door midbass will be fine

the polar response is only slightly different above 10k!!! So…..you should be pointing it any which reasonable way makes you feel good! That’s a fact…. Got to go to the bank with my post.

I love that you can spout of loads of paragraphs and then completely ignore what I wrote… and your revelling in saying what I wrote is wrong yet I specifically didn’t say point it to the ceiling 🙈 way to go, you win the internet for today!

It’s also a good thing I also didn’t say your midbass or subs would be affected in any way shape or form by the angle of the mic, I am normally very specific when I make a point and you have effectively just agreed with the point I was making, well done, you even provided evidence

45 degrees forwards may not be 45 degrees to the tweeters so the fractions of a db (which if you look at the evidence you supplied can actually be more like 1-2db or more at 20khz) could then be far bigger… it costs nothing to put the mic in a more accurate place to measure all freqs so why wouldn’t you?

I said use a 90 degree file and put it at 90 degrees to ‘both tweeters’ and then you will get accuracy and comparable measurements from 20hz to 20khz as both drivers will have the same polar response at the mic and be more accurate, if you’re going to apply eq above 10k then why not make it accurate when you measure, yes the differences are tiny, but if you are going to apply eq with half a db resolution or finer why wouldn’t you want more accurate data up there? We are after all trying to match left and right yes? Thanks for helping me make my point with a reference also

 

[Picassotheimpaler]

Got a very rushed tune in this morning before I was late to work via Dirac. First shot with CSL UMIK-1 is already better sounding than the AF mic.
So even if calibrated, a different mic does seem to make a difference in outcome

 

[Speedhunter]

Got a very rushed tune in this morning before I was late to work via Dirac. First shot with CSL UMIK-1 is already better sounding than the AF mic.
So even if calibrated, a different mic does seem to make a difference in outcome

Can you share comparison between MiniDSP and CSL cal files....

 

[Picassotheimpaler]

Can you share comparison between MiniDSP and CSL cal files....

It actually didn't come with the minidsp file. Probably to avoid confusion of which is which.

 

[oabeieo]

I love that you can spout of loads of paragraphs and then completely ignore what I wrote… and your revelling in saying what I wrote is wrong yet I specifically didn’t say point it to the ceiling 🙈 way to go, you win the internet for today!

It’s also a good thing I also didn’t say your midbass or subs would be affected in any way shape or form by the angle of the mic, I am normally very specific when I make a point and you have effectively just agreed with the point I was making, well done, you even provided evidence

45 degrees forwards may not be 45 degrees to the tweeters so the fractions of a db (which if you look at the evidence you supplied can actually be more like 1-2db or more at 20khz) could then be far bigger… it costs nothing to put the mic in a more accurate place to measure all freqs so why wouldn’t you?

I said use a 90 degree file and put it at 90 degrees to ‘both tweeters’ and then you will get accuracy and comparable measurements from 20hz to 20khz as both drivers will have the same polar response at the mic and be more accurate, if you’re going to apply eq above 10k then why not make it accurate when you measure, yes the differences are tiny, but if you are going to apply eq with half a db resolution or finer why wouldn’t you want more accurate data up there? We are after all trying to match left and right yes? Thanks for helping me make my point with a reference also

i did read it….. but somehow missed that …. Okay fine sorry dumdum …. I was more focused on your opening statement (which looks like a complete condemnation)

Now you own it today…. again sorry 😞.

 

[oabeieo]

Can you share comparison between MiniDSP and CSL cal files....

I’ll try .. I browsed through the frequency chart/impulse it looks like very my new changes but there are definitely differences

It actually didn't come with the minidsp file. Probably to avoid confusion of which is which.

the CSL are .frd and minidsp is .cal

go to the umik1 page on mini DSP website and download their CAL file

 

[Picassotheimpaler]

I’ll try .. I browsed through the frequency chart/impulse it looks like very my new changes but there are definitely differences



the CSL are .frd and minidsp is .cal

go to the umik1 page on mini DSP website and download their CAL file

Ahhh, right. You have to download it via serial number...right.
I'll do that tonight and link it up

 

[hella356]

I should have everything installed by this evening, tune tomorrow morning. I'm confused - in Dirac, when the tweeters are playing their tones, I should ensure the mic is tilted to 90 degrees towards each tweeter, but doesn't matter for the other drivers?

 

[oabeieo]

I should have everything installed by this evening, tune tomorrow morning. I'm confused - in Dirac, when the tweeters are playing their tones, I should ensure the mic is tilted to 90 degrees towards each tweeter, but doesn't matter for the other drivers?

If you just use a 45° tilt to celieng and front windows all else will fall into place…

You just don’t want the microphone tip pointing directly at a Twitter…. So unless you have tweets right in front of you on windshield, your good

it just needs to be a little bit off axis from tweet….. there’s so many different angles

i would go for a standard 45 and not worry too much

if you don’t have a 45 cal just use the 0deg

a little 1db cut above 10k (if it ends up being) will sound better then a boost (with extra emphasis on IF)

 

[hella356]

Excellent, thanks!

 

[dumdum]

I should have everything installed by this evening, tune tomorrow morning. I'm confused - in Dirac, when the tweeters are playing their tones, I should ensure the mic is tilted to 90 degrees towards each tweeter, but doesn't matter for the other drivers?

mtge other drivers show little or no variance with angle of incidence from the mic tip

But No… not quite… you point it up and slightly forwards so if you got a right angle bent piece of wire and could somehow put it down the centre of the microphone and use it like a divining rod you can then spin it around the mic 360 degrees any point it points to will be at 90 degrees to the mic shaft, that is where the 90 degree cal file is geared up for when measuring high freqs, as you go lower it makes less to no difference

and the mics correction in any of those 360 degrees will be the 90 degree file as the source of the sound at any of those points will be 90 degrees to the mic shaft

so the mic is vertical looking from the front windscreen and looking from the side it will make a 90 degree with both tweeters as it will be leant forwards

If the were in the kicks the mic would be roughly 45 degrees looking from the side, if both tweeters are at ear level you would have the mic vertical, so your imaginary swinging round 90 degree divining rod can point at both tweeters

I hope that makes sense 🙈

 

[oabeieo]

mtge other drivers show little or no variance with angle of incidence from the mic tip

But No… not quite… you point it up and slightly forwards so if you got a right angle bent piece of wire and could somehow put it down the centre of the microphone and use it like a divining rod you can then spin it around the mic 360 degrees any point it points to will be at 90 degrees to the mic shaft, that is where the 90 degree cal file is geared up for when measuring high freqs, as you go lower it makes less to no difference

and the mics correction in any of those 360 degrees will be the 90 degree file as the source of the sound at any of those points will be 90 degrees to the mic shaft

so the mic is vertical looking from the front windscreen and looking from the side it will make a 90 degree with both tweeters as it will be leant forwards

If the were in the kicks the mic would be roughly 45 degrees looking from the side, if both tweeters are at ear level you would have the mic vertical, so your imaginary swinging round 90 degree divining rod can point at both tweeters

I hope that makes sense 🙈

fully agree (except I would use the 0cal) but that’s just me and not scientific at all , just a preference and would rather take a cut in HF

 

[hella356]

Great info guys, much appreciated!

 

[Eric Stevens]

I think the problem is not the microphone, I believe its the measurement method for the given measurement in the automotive environment.

Differences between microphones are going to create small differences in the measured response not a big issue really if you are always tuning with the same microphone. For example I can tune equally well with an Coustic as I could with the Audio Control RTA.

Hoiwever how you take the measurements and the noise source are going to produce greatly different results. I prefer pink noise because its random continuous noise, somehwat similar to music. Swept sine wave measurements will create standing waves and other issues that wont happen often listening to music, Impulse / Tone burst / FFT basd measurements are not how the system is used and not good for tuning. I only use this type of source for engineering based measurements and it is useful for setting delays.

For tuning we want to measure in a way that correlates to how we hear and listen. I use 10 second continuous averages using pink noise with a mic moving in figure 8 the size of your head in the listening position. Having tuned so many systems this is what creates repeatable good results.

 

[oabeieo]

I strongly dont think the problem is not the microphone, I believe its the measurement method for the given measurement in the automotive environment.

Differences between microphones are going to create small differences in the measured response not a big issue really if you are always tuning with the same microphone. For example I can tune equally well with an Coustic as I could with the Audio Control RTA.

Hoiwever how you take the measurements and the noise source are going to produce greatly different results. I prefer pink noise because its random continuous noise, somehwat similar to music. Swept sine wave measurements will create standing waves and other issues that wont happen often listening to music, Impulse / Tone burst / FFT basd measurements are not how the system is used and not good for tuning. I only use this type of source for engineering based measurements and it is useful for setting delays.

For tuning we want to measure in a way that correlates to how we hear and listen. I use 10 second continuous averages using pink noise with a mic moving in figure 8 the size of your head in the listening position. Having tuned so many systems this is what creates repeatable good results.

Thank you Eric

Man , that makes a lot of sense…. So I’m not off base then in feeling like the 3050A produces a better overall sound… very interesting.

With FFT I’ve been using pink PN , but something about an old IASCA cd and the good ole CM-10 Just seem to give life to the system…

FFT does sound excellent… and is good enough most of the time…. But when I really want that life like sound I bust out the old skool way…

Im going to chew on this for a min…. Thanks for the reply! 😊