DiyMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

1 - 20 of 83 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This is something that has bothered me for a long time. If I design a system specifically for sound quality, I enjoy the precise control and the ability to listen at low volumes. However, I get greatly disappointed with Dynamics and the ability to play loud. some will say with an SQ system that you can play loud and still sound good doing it.

I want the best of both worlds. Right now I'm looking at designing a new system that will be very efficient for the front stage and the substage. from what I can see, paraflex enclosures are becoming very popular but you need a large vehicle and totaly wall off your vehicle to achieve this type of sound.till this day I have never heard a better system than high-end Pro audio mids compression drivers and 6th order enclosures.

When it comes to sq why do people recommend these weak motor subwoofers? They're not impactful... they lack the Dynamics and excitement of what a pro audio subwoofer has. Is it just easier for people to pick out expensive speakers because tuning is less of a hassle? I think music should be experienced in a live format. How can you appreciate that at low volume? Will the DC audio level 5 subwoofer that cost almost $1,000 be loud and precise enough to replicate what those musicians envisioned what their music should sound like? I've listened to high-end Focal and Morel subs... Precise but lacked excitement. Can you get a strong motor expensive SPL subwoofer that will have the Dynamics and precision?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
914 Posts
If a subwoofer lacks excitement it’s likely due to it not being tuned, listen to a good subwoofer (I use a Dayton RSS390HF) and what you’re saying isn’t an issue, you are talking about spl subs being used in an sq application... it’s like talking about a Prius for track days

No one would ever likely use a dc level 5 for sq, your the only person saying you would

You will also find out most car audio subs are higher motor force than a pro audio subwoofer as it’s for a different application... basically I think you have a little knowledge and are making some massive assumptions which then lead to a post with mostly false statements and duff information spread throughout

also no one would use a large peaky sixth order or tapped for True sq... group delay In a very nearfield environment would be awful, in a stadium your have space... if you note most cars with big sixth orders with horn loading thrown in are normally demo’d with the doors open... and even then they sound like ass a lot of the time, if that’s what you like then great... but don’t ever call it sq in a car application... it’s as far removed as you can get 🙈
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
If a subwoofer lacks excitement it’s likely due to it not being tuned, listen to a good subwoofer (I use a Dayton RSS390HF) and what you’re saying isn’t an issue, you are talking about spl subs being used in an sq application... it’s like talking about a Prius for track days

No one would ever likely use a dc level 5 for sq, your the only person saying you would

You will also find out most car audio subs are higher motor force than a pro audio subwoofer as it’s for a different application... basically I think you have a little knowledge and are making some massive assumptions which then lead to a post with mostly false statements and duff information spread throughout

also no one would use a large peaky sixth order or tapped for True sq... group delay In a very nearfield environment would be awful, in a stadium your have space... if you note most cars with big sixth orders with horn loading thrown in are normally demo’d with the doors open... and even then they sound like ass a lot of the time, if that’s what you like then great... but don’t ever call it sq in a car application... it’s as far removed as you can get 🙈
Have you heard of paraflex enclosures? Their horn loaded cabs. their designed to be very musical at a close distance. Of course there are absolutely massive. The question is, are you willing to sacrifice all that space for high-efficiency. I don't know if I am but all I know is every system I've ever had in my vehicle something was missing. I'm looking for that live sound with lots of Dynamics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,418 Posts
A well built, low tuned, ported box will take up half the space, and sound very good off of 500 watts. There's no need to give up that kind of space to get loud, high quality bass. Honestly, sub-bass is the easiest thing to get right in a car, we are very tolerant of distortion at low frequencies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
764 Posts
This is something that has bothered me for a long time. If I design a system specifically for sound quality, I enjoy the precise control and the ability to listen at low volumes. However, I get greatly disappointed with Dynamics and the ability to play loud. some will say with an SQ system that you can play loud and still sound good doing it.

I want the best of both worlds. Right now I'm looking at designing a new system that will be very efficient for the front stage and the substage. from what I can see, paraflex enclosures are becoming very popular but you need a large vehicle and totaly wall off your vehicle to achieve this type of sound.till this day I have never heard a better system than high-end Pro audio mids compression drivers and 6th order enclosures.

When it comes to sq why do people recommend these weak motor subwoofers? They're not impactful... they lack the Dynamics and excitement of what a pro audio subwoofer has. Is it just easier for people to pick out expensive speakers because tuning is less of a hassle? I think music should be experienced in a live format. How can you appreciate that at low volume? Will the DC audio level 5 subwoofer that cost almost $1,000 be loud and precise enough to replicate what those musicians envisioned what their music should sound like? I've listened to high-end Focal and Morel subs... Precise but lacked excitement. Can you get a strong motor expensive SPL subwoofer that will have the Dynamics and precision?
I'm an SQL kind of guy too. IMPO, an SPL designed sub like DC level 5 can still be made to sound quite musical with a wider frequency band..... Or, it can be made to louder than chit ! Or, a little of both, depending on how it's set up....

I think the bigger issue with a DC level 5 and lots of power, is making enough mids / highs to keep up with it.
 

·
Registered
2015 BMW i3
Joined
·
193 Posts
I work in the entertainment industry, and I've often scratched my head wondering why I never hear a car sound as dynamic as say, a Void Acoustics rig when playing loud.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,418 Posts
I work in the entertainment industry, and I've often scratched my head wondering why I never hear a car sound as dynamic as say, a Void Acoustics rig when playing loud.
For one, there aren't a lot of properly tuned cars just floating around in everyone's social circle, so having access to a good one isn't that common, and actually being able to spend enough time in one is also an issue. A 20 minute demo is a lot different than having the listening experience every time you drive your car.

Additionally, the car environment is way different than every other environment, and we can't tune all of the issues out. The reflections in a car will always make a car sound different than a home stereo, or pro audio setup. It's similar to comparing headphones to nice towers, they can both sound excellent, but they will always sound different. You simply can't tune out all of the problems in a car, even top tier competition winners will still sound different than any other environment.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
For one, there aren't a lot of properly tuned cars just floating around in everyone's social circle, so having access to a good one isn't that common, and actually being able to spend enough time in one is also an issue. A 20 minute demo is a lot different than having the listening experience every time you drive your car.

Additionally, the car environment is way different than every other environment, and we can't tune all of the issues out. The reflections in a car will always make a car sound different than a home stereo, or pro audio setup. It's similar to comparing headphones to nice towers, they can both sound excellent, but they will always sound different. You simply can't tune out all of the problems in a car, even top tier competition winners will still sound different than any other environment.
I've listened to several world class competition SQ cars and I've never been impressed with those systems. They totally lack Dynamics. People always blaming on a tuning but I'm not buying it. I think extreme SQ systems are designed to be flat and that is it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
764 Posts
I've listened to several world class competition SQ cars and I've never been impressed with those systems. They totally lack Dynamics. People always blaming on a tuning but I'm not buying it. I think extreme SQ systems are designed to be flat and that is it
Being totally flat might be someone's idea of SQ, but its definitely not mine.
I prefer a nice, gentle curve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,418 Posts
I've listened to several world class competition SQ cars and I've never been impressed with those systems. They totally lack Dynamics. People always blaming on a tuning but I'm not buying it. I think extreme SQ systems are designed to be flat and that is it
Well, since dynamics is a reference to the difference between loud and quiet parts, can you explain how a car system is less dynamic?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Well, since dynamics is a reference to the difference between loud and quiet parts, can you explain how a car system is less dynamic?
what Im inspired to do with a car is for it to sound like a really nice home Hi-Fi system. I want to hear loud percussive kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle like you are in front of a drummer. a true live sound. I have not heard one car that comes close to anything that I've heard in my music room. I think the only way you can achieve this is the run large mid woofers in the kick panels compression drivers under the dash mid-bass drivers in the back and pro audio subs in a tapped horn enclosure. I do not think that you can achieve that type of sound with 6.5 mids 3 inch midrange and a tweeter. I haven't tried all the high-end speakers but I've had some good ones and I've always been disappointed. I don't know if it can be done but I'm going to try.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,125 Posts
what Im inspired to do with a car is for it to sound like a really nice home Hi-Fi system. I want to hear loud percussive kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle like you are in front of a drummer. a true live sound. I have not heard one car that comes close to anything that I've heard in my music room. I think the only way you can achieve this is the run large mid woofers in the kick panels compression drivers under the dash mid-bass drivers in the back and pro audio subs in a tapped horn enclosure. I do not think that you can achieve that type of sound with 6.5 mids 3 inch midrange and a tweeter. I haven't tried all the high-end speakers but I've had some good ones and I've always been disappointed. I don't know if it can be done but I'm going to try.
I would say you may not have listened to the right car. I have sat in down right impressive cars and they didnt have large subs, huge power, any of that. In some cases some of the best cars I have heard had single subs no larger than a 12" Most of this is tuning and install. If you are replicating a live show, I guess it depends on the show you are listening to. I guess as i get older and my wife and listen to different stuff, you realize bass is a compliment to the other instruments and singers. When we go to blues shows or jazz shows, you hear the bass but it isnt this overpower presence. Believe me, I was a rap kid and had systems back in the day that were multiple 15's, big amps, the whole thing. Now, I couldnt imagine putting more than a sealed 12" in a car with good tuning. One other thing that I have tried to focus on is midbass. If you get that midbass dialed in, a lot of the impact and kick come from there in my experience.

About 3 years ago, I sat in a customer car of a local shop. They brought in some of their better customer installs so people could demo the work. this guy had an Impala and I have never been in a car with dynamics and separation between quiet and attack. this guy had 8's in his doors and the thing rocked. If memory served me he was running a single IB sub. At the end of the day, its preference and where you want to spend your money and put your effort into
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
what Im inspired to do with a car is for it to sound like a really nice home Hi-Fi system. I want to hear loud percussive kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle like you are in front of a drummer. a true live sound. I have not heard one car that comes close to anything that I've heard in my music room. I think the only way you can achieve this is the run large mid woofers in the kick panels compression drivers under the dash mid-bass drivers in the back and pro audio subs in a tapped horn enclosure. I do not think that you can achieve that type of sound with 6.5 mids 3 inch midrange and a tweeter. I haven't tried all the high-end speakers but I've had some good ones and I've always been disappointed. I don't know if it can be done but I'm going to try.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #14

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
That's a very nice car. So it appears he's running an active 4 way. I'm sure it sounds badass. However, a system like that cost a lot of time and money. He has over $10,000 just in amplifiers. I respect it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
I figured you'd be most interested in the large format 7" mids that you seem to be begging for in this thread.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I figured you'd be most interested in the large format 7" mids that you seem to be begging for in this thread.
I'm sure that 7-inch hybrid is excellent but it does not have thr motor force or cone area of a beyma 10g40 10" midrange. I'm looking for a live very dynamic sound. This vehicle here would remind me of some really nice headphones. I want my vehicle to sound like I'm standing right there in front of the drummer while he's playing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
468 Posts
I think you're confusing 130db with "can feel it in your chest". It's really not clear what you're after but I think my home audio floorstanders do everything you want on 120 watts a piece. I'm not sure why you're chasing big watts under the presumption that it gives you dynamics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,418 Posts
what Im inspired to do with a car is for it to sound like a really nice home Hi-Fi system. I want to hear loud percussive kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle like you are in front of a drummer. a true live sound. I have not heard one car that comes close to anything that I've heard in my music room. I think the only way you can achieve this is the run large mid woofers in the kick panels compression drivers under the dash mid-bass drivers in the back and pro audio subs in a tapped horn enclosure. I do not think that you can achieve that type of sound with 6.5 mids 3 inch midrange and a tweeter. I haven't tried all the high-end speakers but I've had some good ones and I've always been disappointed. I don't know if it can be done but I'm going to try.
I'm not really sure why you think such a specific setup is the only way to get what you're looking for. For example: you want pro audio subs in a tapped horn enclosure. By nature, pro audio sacrifices low end extension for efficiency, and SPL. You can get low end extension and big SPL from a simple sealed box. It won't be efficient, but power is cheap these days, so you can simply throw a bunch of power at a good sub in a sealed box and get low end extension, and all the SPL you would need.

Another thing, and this is subjective to an extent, but studio albums are not supposed to sound like live music. Live albums are supposed to sound like live music. Trying to make a studio album sound like a live show is a fool's errand. If you want a live show sound, go to a live show, or listen to a live recording on a good system. Studio albums are not intended to sound like a live show.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
78 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
I'm not really sure why you think such a specific setup is the only way to get what you're looking for. For example: you want pro audio subs in a tapped horn enclosure. By nature, pro audio sacrifices low end extension for efficiency, and SPL. You can get low end extension and big SPL from a simple sealed box. It won't be efficient, but power is cheap these days, so you can simply throw a bunch of power at a good sub in a sealed box and get low end extension, and all the SPL you would need.

Another thing, and this is subjective to an extent, but studio albums are not supposed to sound like live music. Live albums are supposed to sound like live music. Trying to make a studio album sound like a live show is a fool's errand. If you want a live show sound, go to a live show, or listen to a live recording on a good system. Studio albums are not intended to sound like a live show.
Here's the deal, I have had really nice systems in my vehicles and I aspire to get that home Hi-Fi sound that warm punchy deep bass solid musical sound. I have been in some very nice cars including my own and I have not been able to find that sound. The closest I came to that home Hi-Fi sound was dual 6.5 revelators per door, morel 3" mids( can't remember the model) and Morel piccolo tweeters. For subs I had three Image Dynamics idq 15 sealed in a downfire box. That was a very nice sounding system but it's still lacked that really solid kick drum where it feels like you're right there by the drummer. Since I've went the SQ route time and time again, and Iwas never truly satisfied with the sound I've got to give Pro audio a shot. I've read over some post here and I think high efficiency front stage is where I need to be. If that doesn't work for me I'll go the audiofrog route since everybody else is on the bandwagon LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,125 Posts
This is a debate that seems to rage especially depending on what forum you frequent. I am not a fan of the whole pro audio thing. I have sat in several cars over the last year that ran pro audio set ups, and not for me. If you are going for ear shattering loud, they do that easily. Then because the front stage is so loud, they do crazy sub installs to keep up. At least that is what I have heard. Audio Frog and proaudio will sound completely different. I just sat in the local audio frog installers truck. He has a Silverado with GB speakers, JL subs under the rear seat, processing. My son sat in the back seat and it was the first time he ever heard a system like that. That truck has no issue with kick drums, attack, any of that. He played the Eagles live and then some stuff my son listens to, new rap. Everything sounded good but was clean. That is not what I hear when I listen to pro audio set ups.
 
1 - 20 of 83 Posts
Top