Amp on fire!

Ohhh wow, I'll try not to be myself and say some dumb s**t. There's way too much going on for a 1 4 channel amp. 16 speakers to a skar 4ch is way too much. I haven't looked it up but I'm sure it says it's 2ohm stable..... but.... I wouldn't run that amp at 2ohms. No offense but skar is cheap, no amount of cooling will let that amp work the way you have it set up. Last thing I want to see is you burn your car down and for some one to get hurt. For the mean time just run the 6×9s only, I'm assuming they are coaxials. If you want to run 16 speakers I suggest you get 3 more 4 channel amps and run them all at 4ohms if you want them to stay cool and out of protect mode, you could even get 3 more skar amps for all I care. The problem is most ppl get their info from YouTube and the SPL crowd runs "16 tweeters and 16 mids and 0 midbasses" on 1 or 2 4ch amps. I my self is guilty of watching YouTube getting a ton of mids and thinking I knew what I was doing. All those mids n tweeters never made it out the box and they are sitting in my garage storage. Waisted money. You said you had 8" full ranges... there's no such thing, it's probly an 8" midrange. Your 3.5s are most likely coaxials not components. You need to rethink your sound system and how your going to run it. I suggest you listen to the ppl above they are very knowledgeable (more than me). Don't take offense to the criticism if you get any, no one is going to steer you wrong here. I spent months of reading and studying for my sound system after spend thousands of $ on my first install on my Honda. I thought I knew what I was doing and I was way wrong. I still don't understand alot of this stuff. But this place got my sound system bangging. I'll stop here cuz at this point I'm just rambling ✌

DasFriek said:

I dont do series on speakers,only parallel.
i do agree about too many tweeters and to many speakers overall.
ill start at the front and work my way back.

front- l+r are the same as is everything side too side.
2-Skar t1t tweeters,skar 3.5” and 6x9“ on fronts side to side. So 6 speakers on front channel.
back seat is my Skar sub box with an [email protected] each as i have two and two amps running that.
top of the box is 2x DS18 sealed back 8” full range,Skar 3.5” mid and DS18 higher quality tweeters. This is connected to the rear deck parallel.
back window is a 2“ tweeter and a 6x9”
rear channel + box is 10 speakers.

my plan is to unhook the tweets in the front channel.
box ill unhook the sealed 3.5” Skars and possibly keep the Ds18 tweeters if possible.
rear window ill unhook the tweeters there also.
this will illimanate 8-10 speakers,mainly tweeters.

if the rain holds out ill get the dsp in today.
ive measured each channel and they were 4ohms too 2.5 ohms.

just treat me like anyone else who’s car audi knoledge is lacking, but respect me as a person and ill do the same. Of course i know there is an issue and need help clearing it out.

i may keep my Soundstream module for bass as i need a good bass gain at my fingers and not on my ipad/iphone.

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Let nothing get to you. Especially on the net lol. This forum and members are awesome. Most guys are SQ or SQL focused, so when someone pops up with a ton of speakers and issues that gets the wow factor rolling.

How ever you do need more amps. Things to consider. Ohm load and sensitivity. If you attempt to power two different speakers on the same channel you will have issues with sound- bass- mids- treble due to the different sensitivity - over all power it takes to run said speakers. Each channel left and right need to have the same load and speakers with the same sensitivity.

That said. Skar is not what it is when it comes to caraudio. If you want loud and an amp that can support a load. Ask here. Let the guys know what your ultimate goal is and you will get there.

I'd bet you can get the same volume with less better quality speakers and a better amp(s)

I'm going to try and take this one area of the car (or one section of the amp) at a time to keep it from getting confused.

DasFriek said:

2-Skar t1t tweeters,skar 3.5” and 6x9“ on fronts side to side

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When you say t1t tweeters are you talking about the ones like these: Skar TX-T
Skar 3.5" would be their coaxial if I'm correct: Skar TX35
Then the 6x9: Skar TX69

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those.
So if you have those 3 units wired in parallel then from 1.6kHz and up you have 3 x 4 ohm drivers in parallel = 1.3 ohms but that's all in the tweeters and they use so little power that it wouldn't be a huge problem. Still getting rid of one set of tweeters or the 3.5" set should make this front channel setup doable in parallel.

DasFriek said:

top of the box is 2x DS18 sealed back 8” full range,Skar 3.5” mid and DS18 higher quality tweeters. This is connected to the rear deck parallel.
back window is a 2“ tweeter and a 6x9”
rear channel + box is 10 speakers.

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This one you lost me - we don't really need to worry about the subs as they have their own amps.
DS18 sealed back 8 + Skar 3.5 + DS18 HQ Tweeters + 2" Back window Tweeter + 6x9 are all on the rear channel of the amplifier?
The DS18 Sealed Back 8" are only available in 8 ohm IIRC so that's good from 250Hz - 10kHz
The same Skar 3.5 as above is 4 ohms from 145Hz - 20kHz
The DS18 HQ Tweeter I'm going to assume is one of their 3" Bullet Tweeters at 4 ohms from 2kHz - 20kHz
Same for the 2" back window tweeter = 4 ohms from 2kHz - 20kHz
And the Same Skar 6x9 from above = 4 ohms from 40Hz - 25kHz

If all that is correct then the worst area is from 2kHz - 10kHz where all this is in parallel so you would have 0.88 ohms
Then from 250Hz - 2kHz where you have around 1.6 ohms
Then from 145Hz - 250Hz where you are at 2 ohms
and then 40-145Hz is at 4 ohms
Getting rid of the 3.5 and the 2" tweeter would help tremendously. Ideally you would have the 8" sealed back and the HQ Tweeter on the rear channel and then put the 6x9s on their own amp. So maybe get rid of 2 sets of the little tweeters and the 2 sets of 3.5s and see then see if your thermals are more manageable - if it still gets hot then disconnect the 6x9s and try again.

The DSP is just going to be a glorified EQ in your situation, Time Alignment might help a little but a DSP is really meant to have one channel for each driver in your system. Between using a combination of coax and separates and the sheer number of speakers you have the advantages of DSP are going to get lost in the mix. Best to get it ironed out as much as you can without the DSP 1st and then if you still need more adjustment consider the DSP.

When you measure with the multimeter are you measuring with all the speakers connected or each speaker individually?

Are you using any kind of xover other than what came with each driver? Or do all the drivers connected to each channel receive a full range signal?

DasFriek said:

I dont do series on speakers,only parallel.

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Hence your amp being on fire. Assuming you mean the Skar 3.5s in front comprise one of the three sets of tweeters and you've retained the passive crossovers, in the upper frequencies the amp will see a load of 1.3 ohms as others have pointed out. But if your 6x9s are coaxials, then you actually have 4 tweeters up front and will be at 1 ohm from ~3500 Hz up (or whatever frequency gets you above the crossover point of both the 3.5s and the 6x9s)...

One option, again assuming you've retained the passive crossover for the 3.5s, and whether or not the 6x9s are bass drivers only or coaxials, would be to add another passive crossover between the 6x9s and another of your existing pairs of tweeters. This will keep your amp from burning up long enough for you to figure out why we are all saying you should only have one tweeter per channel.

So from the front channels you would have
Left --> Crossover 1 --> tweeter
...................................--> 3.5" woofer
.......--> Crossover 2 --> tweeter
..................................--> 6x9" woofer
Presenting a 2 ohm load overall. Rinse & repeat for the right channel.

BUT you could also just buy a 3-way crossover and do
Left --> Crossover --> tweeter
...............................--> 3.5" mid
...............................--> 6x9" woofer
(And if that doesn't get you enough sound at 4 ohms total, buy a bigger amp).

The rear I won't try too hard to decipher, but don't put tweeters on your rear package tray. It sounds like you could get it down to either a single 2-way crossover (full range 8" + tweeter) or a 3-way crossover there as well (8", 3.5", tweeter) and then leave it at that.

Of course none of this considers the subwoofers as they are driven off of separate amplifier(s) and you haven't stated you have any problems with them.

So apart from subs, you can get it down to 12 total or 10 total drivers off a 4 channel amp, and still present a 4 ohm load provided crossovers are configured properly.

Then disconnect your two rear channels and enjoy.

So mannnny questions my heads gonna explode.
ok so i took out and cut alot to get where i am now.
front dash is the Skar 6x9” in the doors, and 3.5” in the dash filling the stock spots. Minus 4 tweets overall here.
on top my box im gonna for now unplug everything. So 2x8” 8ohm sealed DS18 mids are un-plugged but have plans i think for another amp for them.
cut and wont be used unless i get another amp is the 3.5”s 4ohm i believe on top of the box,but cut for now.
rear channel in back window speakers 6x9” and 2x2” 8ohm tweeters.

so for now ive eliminated 6 tweeters, and 2x8” mids sealed and 2x3.5”

now my ohms per channel is 2.5ohm in dash from my memory.
my box altho unhooked is giving 2.2 with the 3.5” and 8” alone is 6.5ohm even tho its stated as 8ohm.
also rear window was in the 2ohm range as memory goes.

i did put the DSP back in and im ok until it gets to the crossover page.
bass is more punchy and tight as i did leave my Soundstream module in place so i can adjust the bass with its decent bass/subsonic controller.

so i think i need another 2-4 channel amp to run the top of the box 8” + 3.5”
until then i think ill be on the lookout for that amp. My dsp has room for 2 more channels.

one question, where should my amp settings be set for the DSP to take over?
or set crossovers on the amps?

(Edited for typos)

My advice, and I expect you'll get the same from others, is you have clearly made some improvements, now pause for a moment, spend time listening to your system, read about driver selection, and study, study, study installation and tuning methods before you pour any more money into components that may not work well together.

A few starting concepts, and you can research further from here:

Low bass frequencies, especially when played in a small room, are omnidirectional and cannot be located by your ears. Don't worry about subwoofer placement so much as installation technique.

Midrange and high frequencies contain lots of imaging cues and are easily located by your ears, this is in part a function of having shorter wavelengths relative to the spacing between your ears. In other words, your brain can interpret the intensity difference and the time delay between when the signal reaches your two ears, and instinctively direct your attention to the origin of the sound. For this reason, placement of these speakers is key to recreating sound that is similar to what was recorded.

It's worth trying the following: wrap the backs of your midrange drivers in a few layers of towels to cancel the back wave. Cut holes in tennis balls and install your tweeters into those holes. Wire both up with extra length of wire, and move them around the cabin, placing them close to any feasible locations where your could install them, and listen for differences. You can temporarily prop these up with twine, tape, Velcro, putty - whatever makes sense and will hold each speaker in place long enough for you to listen to a familiar recording and form an impression of how realistic or unrealistic the sound reproduction is. Repeat this exercise until you've tried every feasible location and angle for each driver, and identified the "sweet spot" where everything sounds nearly as good as you hope - with no signal processing whatsoever besides basic crossover setup either via passive crossovers (if your available number of channels of DSP and amplification are limited), or with the active crossovers built into your DSP. Proceed to install in those locations.

Setting crossover points is another whole topic. Your best starting point is to look up the Fs (resonant frequency) of your tweeter, and set your crossover point to 2x Fs. On the flip side of that, you'll want to consider the size of the drivers reproducing your midrange and woofer or "mid bass" as we sometimes call it, and consider how high each of these will be required to play based on the tweeter crossover settings.

You can calculate (searchable, though I don't store the formulas in my active memory) based on the size of the midrange and mid bass drivers where you can expect to hear cone breakup, beaming, and cancellation - effectively wherever frequencies from one side of the driver will cancel out the frequencies from the other side based on the distance between them adding up to half the wavelength of a given note. Manufacturer's frequency response charts, if available, will also shed light on the range in which you can expect a flat response - especially if a chart is provided for both on-axis and off-axis response. Try to cross your mids below the upper end of that flat range depending on the orientation. (Unless you get fancy, mids and woofers will almost always be mounted off-axis in the mobile audio environment, i.e., a typical door installation.)

If you have a 2-way setup and find you have a frequency gap between how high your woofers play and how low your tweeters play, then you have entered territory where a 3-way soundstage is appropriate and perhaps necessary for satisfactory results. You'll have to make a studied decision on whether or not that is appropriate in your build.

Once you understand everything I typed above, as well as all follow-up questions that have arisen, THEN commit to your next set of experiments. In the meantime, continue listening to what you currently have installed to establish a baseline you can refer back to, and detect whether any changes you make going forward lead you toward or away from accurate sound reproduction.

$.02.... my first stereo had two Auto Zone "bass tubes" running off the back two channels of an 80 watt head unit, with a pair of door mounted no-name coaxials with Mylar tweeters in ugly wooden spacers in the front door cards. We all start somewhere, and we all go through many iterations to get to something satisfying to our ears. The trick is, as we learn more, we hear more. It is an endless rabbit hole, but if you're going to head down it, you'll do best if your next attempts are studied and intentional, so you can understand why you get the results you do.

Good luck! As you can see, those of us who have been around this block a time or two are all very willing to help out where we can when someone presents a genuine question. We blend art and science here to a large degree, which means you'll often find more than one approach that works. The trick is gaining the background to understand why something does or doesn't work, and the craftsmanship to present it in a way you can personally enjoy and be proud of. Hope this and the comments you've received from others have been helpful.

-TJMA


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ItsonlyaHONDA said:

I read all of that and if I were him I'd listen. I love reading what knowledgeable ppl have to say. But I think he just wants to get loud and wake his neighbors when he gets home. Maybe make a YouTube video of his body panels "flexin" like Redondo beach waves. But you are right and in this game less is more.

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I mean, I can also tell you how to break the windshield on a GMC 1500. Many years ago, an old buddy had me design and build a half-wall of 4 12s in 13 CF replacing the second row of a cab-and-a-half pickup. Roughly 2500 watts clean RMS, 2/0 wiring everywhere, and a 350 amp alternator. You could hear him well over a mile away, but I still made sure his tweeters were located properly for decent imaging ---- not that he would ever notice with the bass-induced deafness that certainly followed after a few weeks of listening

I will say, the bass was so intense I wore earplugs and earmuffs while tuning the system, and still had to take a break every 5-10 minutes so I wouldn't be sick to my stomach. You wanna wake up the neighbors? I won't condone it but I can sure pull it off when it's the order of the day.


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