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So what your saying is I should wait till December before purchasing a nicer dsp..

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You can safely assume it'll be in the 1-2k price line. Guaranteed. Though atleast the software comes with it this time. That's nice.

UI is still garbage, with the price he puts on these. You would assume they would fix that without the excuse of "its for professionals"
I work in the "pro" video world, and the UI for this hardware isn't bad at all compared to what I regularly come across. Workshop isn't as pretty or intuitive as REW, but I get FAR better results, in significantly less time, with Workshop than I do with REW. That's a trade off I'm willing to make.
 

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Designing a pretty GUI takes time and costs money. I'm in a similar line of work and I agree. I've seen far worse interfaces on much more expensive systems.

I'll take functionality any day over spending more money on something that really isn't needed for the task.

At least it's not command line driven.

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You can get it with digital input- AES/3, S/PDIF, and toslink are options. And can be Dante ready on request too.

There is a high rez version that can do 24/96 and/or 24/192. Those versions have 16384 taps on the two lowest bands.

Thats right. U tell Raimonds what you want and he will customise it for you. Mine has Coax and toslink inputs.

I do wish that it can function as a desktop dac though.
 

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Its 270 x 205 x 35mm. Thats my unit..
I have mounted an extra plate behind the rear seats (sedan) for my present apl1 and amplifyer on one side, and the hand-made crossovers plus amp for the subwoofer on the other side. Looks great. There is even a place to replace the existing apl1 unit with this new monster one. Highly recommended.
 

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Yeah I myself have 3x MiniDSP 2x4 HDs. I’m planning on doing some opamp / cap mods which should be good fun.

You’re right that there’s not a lot of FIR filter options at this point in time. But, there’s another product with FIR filters which will enter the market in Q3-Q4 which is currently unannounced.

I’m thinking the DSP market is going to heat up soon.
I looked at three miniDSP, but there are no FIR filters there.

There was a French unit and I think some other system. I am not sure how I find a unit which is not announced :confused:, but I suspect that the APL will be good enough for me :rolleyes:

I am not sure that the DSP market will heat up. Why pay more for a unit that is only a little better?
 

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I looked at three miniDSP, but there are no FIR filters there.

There was a French unit and I think some other system. I am not sure how I find a unit which is not announced :confused:, but I suspect that the APL will be good enough for me :rolleyes:

I am not sure that the DSP market will heat up. Why pay more for a unit that is only a little better?
MiniDSP 2x4HD, the MiniShac, the OpenDRC series, and the C-DSP 8x12 (eventually, needs firmware update for it) all support FIR.
 

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The C-DSP?
Yes, their C-DSP 8x12 has FIR compatibility however the dev team has yet to release it in a firmware update. It says it in the spec sheet: “IIR/FIR (depending on plugin)”.
 

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Yes, their C-DSP 8x12 has FIR compatibility however the dev team has yet to release it in a firmware update. It says it in the spec sheet: “IIR/FIR (depending on plugin)”.
^That^ is more like "existing in theory", than actually existing in the natural world..

I had been leaning the miniDSP way, but the support team and forum did not seem helpful enough for what I wanted, so I was in the fence... I am not sure how many people need to say FIR is a waste of my time, before we all agree that it seems that I am just too set in my ways.

I was about ready to dive in, and the choice was 88A-BM or the APL.

I suspect that they both end up at the same place in flatness/EQ - just the APL was "about ready to ship", and the miniDSP was "just needing a plugin".
 

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^That^ is more like "existing in theory", than actually existing in the natural world..

I had been leaning the miniDSP way, but the support team and forum did not seem helpful enough for what I wanted, so I was in the fence... I am not sure how many people need to say FIR is a waste of my time, before we all agree that it seems that I am just too set in my ways.

I was about ready to dive in, and the choice was 88A-BM or the APL.

I suspect that they both end up at the same place in flatness/EQ - just the APL was "about ready to ship", and the miniDSP was "just needing a plugin".
Not exactly, the C-DSP 8x12 uses the ADSP21489 chip, which is the same as the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. The 2x4 HD does FIR today. I don’t think it’s a stretch to expect the 8x12 to do it. I do, however, have reservations about how whether or not there will be enough taps to effectively equalize / phase correct the sub-channel via FIR.

Either way you seem kind of defensive about it which isn’t necessary. The APL seems like an excellent DSP, just out of my price range. I didn’t go with the 8x12 myself because of the fact that the MiniDSP support / dev team is unwilling to communicate product roadmaps and I don’t feel like waiting on them. I got a good deal on 3x 2x4 HDs and I’m doing Toslink into all 3. I’m a DIY’er so I’ll be upgrading opamps, upgrading caps, building my own isolated dc/dc power supply and really tuning it for my setup. That’s beyond what most can do and I think an all-in-one solution like the APL is a better option for most.
 

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Not exactly, the C-DSP 8x12 uses the ADSP21489 chip, which is the same as the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. The 2x4 HD does FIR today. I don’t think it’s a stretch to expect the 8x12 to do it. I do, however, have reservations about how whether or not there will be enough taps to effectively equalize / phase correct the sub-channel via FIR.

Either way you seem kind of defensive about it which isn’t necessary. The APL seems like an excellent DSP, just out of my price range. I didn’t go with the 8x12 myself because of the fact that the MiniDSP support / dev team is unwilling to communicate product roadmaps and I don’t feel like waiting on them. I got a good deal on 3x 2x4 HDs and I’m doing Toslink into all 3. I’m a DIY’er so I’ll be upgrading opamps, upgrading caps, building my own isolated dc/dc power supply and really tuning it for my setup. That’s beyond what most can do and I think an all-in-one solution like the APL is a better option for most.
I am not feeling as defensive as normal :)
I'm just trying to outline my thought process, which may help to understand whether my decision was rational. It may not be, but knowing the process allows for a better discussion of whether the solution was supported by the process, or whether the thought process was flawed. To me the thought process is likely more important, as we can arrive at some agreement.

Ideally one would have the sub channel resampled (Filter-tune-decimate) down to a lower rate... So something like 48k or 96k resampled down to something like 2k samples/second for the sub-channel... which supports a Nyquist of 1k. Then 1k taps is plenty, and 129 or 257 taps would be good too... unless one actually wants the sub to get in the hundreds of Hz range, which one may want in a home setting or some front sub arrangement?? (It would probably be rare, but maybe a horn set up with subs going to 300 Hz would justify it??)

I basically looked at multiple (3) 2x4s and thought, "self, just get a single unit". Which was the APL or the 88A.

I don't think there is bad choice here, but I did decide to trade $ for better perceived support and time savings, and less complexity than multiple MiniDSPs.

Whether that makes sense or not we will see when the unit gets here, and how well the whole thing works in a system.

So I welcome your thoughts... (whether I seem defensive or not.)
 

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I am not feeling as defensive as normal :)
I'm just trying to outline my thought process, which may help to understand whether my decision was rational. It may not be, but knowing the process allows for a better discussion of whether the solution was supported by the process, or whether the thought process was flawed. To me the thought process is likely more important, as we can arrive at some agreement.
Totally reasonable, I'm sorry for reading too much into your last post and accusing you of being defensive.

Ideally one would have the sub channel resampled (Filter-tune-decimate) down to a lower rate... So something like 48k or 96k resampled down to something like 2k samples/second for the sub-channel... which supports a Nyquist of 1k. Then 1k taps is plenty, and 129 or 257 taps would be good too... unless one actually wants the sub to get in the hundreds of Hz range, which one may want in a home setting or some front sub arrangement?? (It would probably be rare, but maybe a horn set up with subs going to 300 Hz would justify it??)

I basically looked at multiple (3) 2x4s and thought, "self, just get a single unit". Which was the APL or the 88A.

I don't think there is bad choice here, but I did decide to trade $ for better perceived support and time savings, and less complexity than multiple MiniDSPs.

Whether that makes sense or not we will see when the unit gets here, and how well the whole thing works in a system.

So I welcome your thoughts... (whether I seem defensive or not.)
I think you made the right choice. If I was strictly looking to use a DSP, I'd avoid running multiple smaller DSP units. I'm just looking for a project. Since I was able to get the MiniDSPs for a little bit over $100 each, it actually enabled me to feel okay with modding them (and potentially blowing up a board if things go horribly wrong).

Also in my case I'm going to be using a stock-headunit-to-toslink adapter which will retain volume control in the headunit and output a digital signal. That digital signal goes to a splitter which splits it into 3 connections which goes to the MiniDSPs. If I was using RCA's out from my headunit or from a high/low level converter then that whole setup wouldn't make much sense as I'd be passing the signal through too many different devices and hurting signal integrity. Digital won't have that same problem.

The last component is the selecting of which preset for the DSP. I'll use an arduino and 3d print a set of 4 switches to help facilitate the communication of which preset is being used and send it to the 3 DSPs.

Between the MiniDSPs, the cost of the upgrade opamps and parts, and the arduino, I'm still below $500. And that gets me 3x the processing power of the 8x12 C-DSP, plus I expect higher sound quality after the mods. This comes with the price of a heck of a lot more hassle and engineering. Plus if I wasn't doing volume over toslink, I'd need to also make a volume controller. But that stuff is for fun, for me at least. But I probably wouldn't have gone this route if MiniDSP had equipped their 8x12 with FIR out of the box. There's also another DSP coming to market later this year, if they can release it on time, which should be really really promising.

GreatLaBroski, I’m really curious about the mods you planned, but I’m sure you’ll let us know.
I'll do a build thread for it. I'll definitely be A/B testing them since I have 3, but I'm trying to figure out a way to non-subjectively measure the results.

That shouldn't be a big deal, but I know it's been a major point of contention with this forum, relating to amplifiers. Some believe that amplifiers all sound the same. Yet it's pretty well established that opamps sound different. For those who disagree, go on hifi forums and try saying that to them. They do and I've heard the differences. It's kind of what timbre is to speakers, except for solid state chips. Timbre isn't able to be expressed with waterfall charts and frequency graphs. Since different amps use different opamps and circuit architectures shouldn't it be that it's possible that different amps sound different? Anyways, I shouldn't even start that discussion here seeing how prior threads have gone. :laugh:

As a quick rundown of what I'm doing, I'm planning on:

Replacing the JRC2068 opamps with AD8599 opamps
Replacing the output DC filtering caps with Silmic II audio 100uf 6.3v caps (expecting it to improve bass attack and depth)
Upgrading the two clock oscillators with higher quality crystals (might skip this since I should have nice power)
Upgrading the linear voltage regulator to it's bigger brother with 2x output capabilities
Adding Panasonic ECWFE 1uf film capacitors to the new opamps as bypass caps.
I may also upgrade the SMT 1000uf power supply cap with something bigger since it seems to get warm, but I'll need to find a replacement that fits.
I'm going to make a DC/DC isolated power supply for the 3 MiniDSPs using a Cincon EC4SBW-24S12 20 integrated DC/DC converter module to provide clean isolated power.
All in all, I'm expecting these mods to make a pretty big improvement in sound quality, not that it's bad now.

I have all class G/H amps too, and I'm considering recapping and upgrading the opamps on them too, even though 2 of them are NIB. They are using JRC 5532's which really aren't that bad though.

Anyways, sorry for getting off track OP. I'd love to hear some more subjective impressions of the APL DSP. It's a beauty. Same goes for you Holmz, when you get yours I'd love to see you do a thread on it and get some in-depth feedback on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
I am not sure how many people need to say FIR is a waste of my time, before we all agree that it seems that I am just too set in my ways.
I'm very impressed by FIR filtering to say the least. The things you can do with it far outshines any traditional IIR-type filters. I would never go back to a traditional DSP-setup nowadays.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Not exactly, the C-DSP 8x12 uses the ADSP21489 chip, which is the same as the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. The 2x4 HD does FIR today. I don’t think it’s a stretch to expect the 8x12 to do it. I do, however, have reservations about how whether or not there will be enough taps to effectively equalize / phase correct the sub-channel via FIR.

Either way you seem kind of defensive about it which isn’t necessary. The APL seems like an excellent DSP, just out of my price range. I didn’t go with the 8x12 myself because of the fact that the MiniDSP support / dev team is unwilling to communicate product roadmaps and I don’t feel like waiting on them. I got a good deal on 3x 2x4 HDs and I’m doing Toslink into all 3. I’m a DIY’er so I’ll be upgrading opamps, upgrading caps, building my own isolated dc/dc power supply and really tuning it for my setup. That’s beyond what most can do and I think an all-in-one solution like the APL is a better option for most.
The 2x4 HD got very limited FIR capabilities. At least for lower frequencies with 2048taps in total. It's like 11Hz resolution at 48kHz (unless it allows for lower sampling that is). It's usable with midrange/tweeters but pretty unusable with anythings lower than that. It's in the modal range you want the added resolution that high amount of taps give you. I remember I looked at this and passed on this DSP for that reason.
 

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The 2x4 HD got very limited FIR capabilities. At least for lower frequencies with 2048taps in total. It's like 11Hz resolution at 48kHz. It's usable with midrange/tweeters but pretty unusable with anythings lower than that. It's in the modal range you want the added resolution that high amount of taps give you. I remember I looked at this and passed on this DSP for that reason.
It can do about 4096 on a single channel if you reassign taps from unused channels. I’m splitting my DSPs into (Front Left Midbass/Mid/High) / (Front Right Midbass/Mid/High) / (Subwoofer / Rear Fill L/R).

I can move rear fill to the other DSPs if I really need all 4096, but that should be enough.
 

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It can do about 4096 on a single channel if you reassign taps from unused channels. I’m splitting my DSPs into (Front Left Midbass/Mid/High) / (Front Right Midbass/Mid/High) / (Subwoofer / Rear Fill L/R).

I can move rear fill to the other DSPs if I really need all 4096, but that should be enough.
I know a bit about DSP... so I know that you would be better off sampling the sub channel at the lowest rate, or resampling it down to a low rate. You can goggle multirate processing or resampling if that helps to get a handle on it...

Then at a 2k sample rate you get FFT bins can be 1-Hz apart and you have reduced the processing load as the bins are few and the sample rate is low. And 2k is about 10x what you really need with an 80-100 Hz sub bandwidth.

Or you use a $hit load of bins at a high sample rate... Both yeild exactly the same output, but I am not sure that resampling is feasible in these DSPs.
 
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