[Kenneth M]

Sinfoni has a warm yet detailed sound signature that is not fatiguing over long listening periods.

Milbert tube amplifiers have a warm sound that is fatiguing over long listening periods.

Mosconi amplifiers do not have a warm sound, but sound detailed and in some instances have been labeled clinical.


These are paraphrases that I run across over and over again. People claim that certain amplifiers have certain sound signatures, and they are described the same way on different forums in different countries from different people that have never met each other.

So, if these opinions are replicated and so many people say that everything from an audio perspective can be measured, how are these sound signatures measured, and how can we all look at a piece of paper and determine what amplifier has what sound signature?

I'm really curious to hear your thoughts!

 

[Hanatsu]

Oh. One of those threads again. I'm not even convinced sound signatures exist other than with tube amps that have a non-flat FR and a different non-linear distortion character. Amps clip differently, if driven too hard some sound better than others and that can be probably solely be related to non-linear distortion.

If FR measures flat 20-20k and IMD+N and THD+N are below 0,5% then I consider the amp to be audibly transparent, I don't give it a second thought.

 

[SkizeR]

Oh. One of those threads again. I'm not even convinced sound signatures exist other than with tube amps that have a non-flat FR and a different non-linear distortion character. Amps clip differently, if driven too hard some sound better than others and that can be probably solely be related to non-linear distortion.

If FR measures flat 20-20k and IMD+N and THD+N are below 0,5% then I consider the amp to be audibly transparent, I don't give it a second thought.

but what if it has silver solder used on the components!! :laugh:

 

[Hanatsu]

but what if it has silver solder used on the components!! :laugh:

OMG totally forgot about that.

Sometimes I feel like leaving this forum forever, tired of the flow of audiophile thinking that totally kills off the science and DIY spirit. It's like people doesn't even care about how stuff works anymore. Human hearing are so damn superior every measurement rig on the earth so why bother...

 

[turbo5upra]

 

[Hanatsu]

 

[DBlevel]

but what if it has silver solder used on the components!! :laugh:

YUM!

 

[casey]

link to audiophile grade silver solder? Need to step my game up, THX

 

[SkizeR]

link to audiophile grade silver solder? Need to step my game up, THX

this is the cheaper audiophile grade stuff i use. its only 20 dollars a foot.

Pure Silver, Fine 9999 and 999 wire

 

[Kenneth M]

A ton of LOL in this thread.

The more I study, the more I'm getting pulled to the dark side of this "amps sound same" thing.

I just watched an audioholics video where they try to defend the argument that different amplifiers sound differently, and it sounded ridiculous. But it sounds just as ridiculous when a bunch of people who've never owned or heard said amps parroting each other.

For those who've been around these forums for quite a few years, is there any post by a high class amplifier collector, that has hooked his amplifiers up to an exceptional set of speakers, and tested them to find that within moderate listening volume, they sound exactly the same?

If so, please point me to the post. I would love to see it. That to me would be evidence enough.

 

[SkizeR]

A ton of LOL in this thread.

The more I study, the more I'm getting pulled to the dark side of this "amps sound same" thing.

I just watched an audioholics video where they try to defend the argument that different amplifiers sound differently, and it sounded ridiculous. But it sounds just as ridiculous when a bunch of people who've never owned or heard said amps parroting each other.

For those who've been around these forums for quite a few years, is there any post by a high class amplifier collector, that has hooked his amplifiers up to an exceptional set of speakers, and tested them to find that within moderate listening volume, they sound exactly the same?

If so, please point me to the post. I would love to see it. That to me would be evidence enough.

lets put it this way, no one has claimed the 10000 dollars yet...

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ

 

[WestCo]

Sinfoni has a warm yet detailed sound signature that is not fatiguing over long listening periods.

Milbert tube amplifiers have a warm sound that is fatiguing over long listening periods.

Mosconi amplifiers do not have a warm sound, but sound detailed and in some instances have been labeled clinical.


These are paraphrases that I run across over and over again. People claim that certain amplifiers have certain sound signatures, and they are described the same way on different forums in different countries from different people that have never met each other.

So, if these opinions are replicated and so many people say that everything from an audio perspective can be measured, how are these sound signatures measured, and how can we all look at a piece of paper and determine what amplifier has what sound signature?

I'm really curious to hear your thoughts!

Stock zapco amps sound muddy

Honestly this is a great question. However if you look at all the BS specs that are currently in the industry it's all geared toward total harmonic distortion, which tells us NOTHING at all about how the amplifier is going to sound, aside from the waveform at specific frequencies not being distorted or having new frequencies appearing in the spectrum.

The thing to do would be to break the audible range up into segments say 500 hz each. Then using a noise generator attempt to get a response curve directly from the amp, while using the highest resolution capture possible. (I have yet to see anyone do a comprehensive study on this).

There is a bunch of software out there that could be used to take on this task if one so desired. Spectrum Analyzer -STUDIOTOOLZ – the best free audio & music production software
It's fairly simple to do via actual drivers.

Now here's the part that really aggravates me.

Go through all that work and find lets say a 0.25 DB drop or spike in an amps performance. What are people going to say? That's not audible/that doesn't matter. That's where I call BS... The differences have been there this whole time, and they are downplayed by certain members of the community. And the snake oil/can of worms comes out.

Remember there is no standard way of measuring audio performance.

Sonically no two amps can be 100% identical, even if they are from the same series on the same day in an assembly line. There are way too many variables.
Hearing the difference with your ears or using instrumentation to detect it is another matter. It simply depends on how good the "hardware" is.

 

[Kenneth M]

lets put it this way, no one has claimed the 10000 dollars yet...

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ

Yeah, I saw that test. It bothers me a little that we don't know if he's using exceptional speakers and that we don't know which two amps he is using.

If I knew for a fact that he was testing a Mosconi vs Sinfoni, and he was using sl first class speakers, I would be a believer. No doubt. It's the obscurities that have me doubting.

It would be much more convincing for me to read someone say "Hey I wasted a ridiculous amount of coin on collecting amps. All that bs you read about warm vs clinical isn't the amplifiers, it has to be something else. I've a/b tested them and they sound the same."

Someone admitting they were wrong and advises others not to make the same mistake is far more convincing to me than someone trying to prove that their right under unknown conditions.

Thx for the response!

 

[WestCo]

Come over to my place and lets a/b some amps.
Try a class D full range vs a class A bias.

Richard Clark can go an sit in the corner... lmao

 

[WestCo]

OMG totally forgot about that.

Sometimes I feel like leaving this forum forever, tired of the flow of audiophile thinking that totally kills off the science and DIY spirit. It's like people doesn't even care about how stuff works anymore. Human hearing are so damn superior every measurement rig on the earth so why bother...

Human ears are what we use to enjoy music.

If anyone wants to do a loan on some pure silver core RCA's just LMK.
So you can test on your own system...
Or silver litz?

The OTHER thing that can be frustrating is when people don't take the time to test or try things for themselves. They read things online that suggest one thing or another and treat it as absolute fact and are 100% certain that variables in their system don't matter.

In all this, it's what makes people happy. Audio in a home or in a car is something that should be enjoyed. And debates about how amps color the sound should be welcome. We should be critical about products, because most of the stuff coming off of assembly lines "all sounds the same" because it's all equally mediocre (for the most part).

That's my rant, I am done. Sorry for taking my usual standoffish attitude.

 

[WestCo]

link to audiophile grade silver solder? Need to step my game up, THX

Cardas quad works very well.
The 4% silver bs, is hard to work with.

 

[Hanatsu]

A ton of LOL in this thread.

The more I study, the more I'm getting pulled to the dark side of this "amps sound same" thing.

I just watched an audioholics video where they try to defend the argument that different amplifiers sound differently, and it sounded ridiculous. But it sounds just as ridiculous when a bunch of people who've never owned or heard said amps parroting each other.

For those who've been around these forums for quite a few years, is there any post by a high class amplifier collector, that has hooked his amplifiers up to an exceptional set of speakers, and tested them to find that within moderate listening volume, they sound exactly the same?

If so, please point me to the post. I would love to see it. That to me would be evidence enough.

The subject is "LOL". 99.99% of all distortion come from the environment and speakers in that order. Signatures if they are there or not do not matter one bit. Get a DSP, get whatever sound character you want. Might sound like I'm just being arrogant here but seriously, people put way too much effort into that 0.01%

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk

 

[WestCo]

The subject is "LOL". 99.99% of all distortion come from the environment and speakers in that order. Signatures if they are there or not do not matter one bit. Get a DSP, get whatever sound character you want. Might sound like I'm just being arrogant here but seriously, people put way too much effort into that 0.01%

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk

So your net argument is that the environment where the system is placed has such a greater impact on how the system is going to sound that we should all go out and buy the cheapest stuff we can? It's only going to have a net impact of 0.01% after all.

Ok lets explore that.
Sell all the aftermarket amps we have.
The 15w RMS from the deck will do just fine. It's only 0.005% after all

Lets also start using some 5kb/s MP3's that's the last 0.005% after all and they are a heck of a lot cheaper than CD's.

Consider doing that and tell me you just made a 0.01% change in your audio quality. It's a big oversimplification. If everything is "right" the little differences become more apparent, and yes that requires a considerable amount of very hard work to get there. In a home it's much easier to achieve, an open unobstructed space. In a car, the difficulty is increased 10 fold; but there are still many breathtaking systems.

I am not going to downplay how important the environment in to total sound quality. Placing an obstruction in front of a speaker is obviously going to have a much larger impact on the sound than even changing out the drivers.

I think a different way to perceive the issue is that the environment for a system is a fixed variable, you are likely not going to knock down a wall in your home to improve the acoustics. (I would give you mad props if you do though).

We are talking about issues of clarity here and the initial waveform sent to the drivers, after you get the environment/install to your liking. What variables are you left with to improve things... tuning and audio component selection.

 

[WestCo]

And I do want to apologize if I come off as rude. I think it would be nice to have a chat about sound coloration once in a while. I would like to get other peoples opinion on products so I don't have to resort to trying everything on my home theater system or the backbreaking work of A/B testing in a car. Maybe it's the last fraction of a percent that I am after, that's what brings me the joy.

 

[WestCo]

Sinfoni has a warm yet detailed sound signature that is not fatiguing over long listening periods.

Milbert tube amplifiers have a warm sound that is fatiguing over long listening periods.

Mosconi amplifiers do not have a warm sound, but sound detailed and in some instances have been labeled clinical.


These are paraphrases that I run across over and over again. People claim that certain amplifiers have certain sound signatures, and they are described the same way on different forums in different countries from different people that have never met each other.

So, if these opinions are replicated and so many people say that everything from an audio perspective can be measured, how are these sound signatures measured, and how can we all look at a piece of paper and determine what amplifier has what sound signature?

I'm really curious to hear your thoughts!

Back on topic,

Well I am curious as to how we could compare amplifier responses on actually music in real time. Noise is easy to compare, but it's a much more difficult proposition to test amps dynamically for sound quality.

I am not sure how you could gauge clarity using noise or learn anything other than if the amp has a flat frequency response. It's really a question for an engineer.It's a situation where ears are an easy option to make comparisons.