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I have a 2013 Audi RS5, and have some leftover equipment from my previous car (2011 A5) that I want to integrate into a totally new system for the RS5.

If you've any experience with B8 Audi's, you'll know the limitations of speaker placement and depth. As it stands stock, the car has very shallow 8" door speakers, 1" tweeters in the A pillar, and very shallow 3" windshield-firing mids. These are all B&O speakers as well.

I already have a sub, box, and amp (Sundown SA-12 in a tuned and ported box with a Sundown SAE-1500D amp). I plan to get a Mobridge MOST DA2 and a Helix DSP to dial all this in.

Critically, I already have an Arc Audio KS-300.4 that I need to utilize in some fashion for the front stage. I do not have any speakers purchased yet. My goal is great sound quality, the ability to play loud and clear across all frequencies, with a stealth installation. This means no custom A-pillars or anything like that. Everything will be professionally installed, no rear fill, no center channel; new speakers only.

Should I take the safe route and just go with, say, Audiofrog GS60 and GS10s with the GS610C crossover? This is a passive 2 way with quality equipment I know was all designed to sound great together. Simple and easy.

Ideally, I would like to utilize the front 3.0" speakers in a 3-way system. I have a little experience with tuning and look forward to doing that part of it with the Helix DSP. How can I go 3-way active with
1. Something that fits in the stock dash locations (Audison Voce 3.0? Audiofrog GB25?)
2. A 6.5 that fits in the shallow door location (Audiofrog GS60? My first choice from what I've read would be the Stereo Integrity TM65 MKIII) I love midbass. The doors will be fully treated with deadening etc.
3. A smooth textile 1" tweeter (Audiofrog GS10? Audiofrog GB10? I've read that the ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 is amazing). I hate harsh tweeters.

Keeping in mind we need to use the Arc Audio KS-300.4 in some kind of way. The options here are 90x4 @ 4ohms, 350x2 @ 4ohms bridged, and 175x4 @ 2 ohms. I'd like to stay under $1,500 for all the new speakers, crossovers, and amplifiers if they're required. I'd really prefer to go 3-way, but I'm open to suggestions and flexible! The Helix DSP and Mobridge DA2 aren't part of the sub-$1,500 figure btw, so don't count those.

Bonus points if you're familiar with the platform aka jimmydee, I'd LOVE to get your thoughts on this one!

Pic for reference
 

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Or could you do your DSP install first and see then how the speakers sound before replacing them?

This sure seems like a good idea. And if those B&O drivers are anywhere near as good as the Dynaudio systems I've heard in some of the older VW's, that could be a done deal.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Or could you do your DSP install first and see then how the speakers sound before replacing them?
Good idea, and the factory speakers aren't that bad acutally, but there is definite room for improvement from the mid range down. Your idea would be feasible, but the factory subwoofer is awful, and the factory speakers would not be able to keep up with the Sundown 12" and amp, which leads us to this.

All of that aside, I would LOVE for the solution to be a quick and easy DSP because I could spend that money elsewhere on the car. Alas, that doesn't solve the problem as anyone who has listened to or owns a B8 Audi with the B&O stereo can attest to. Multiple Audi forums corroborate this.

FWIW I've read that the drivers and amp are not manufactured by Bang & Olufsen, but the system is "tuned" by them, thus allowing them to call it a Bang & Olufsen system. If this were an A8 with the big B&O system with the motorized tweeters in the dash, I'd agree with you and say a DSP alone is the way to go.
 

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Good idea, and the factory speakers aren't that bad acutally, but there is definite room for improvement from the mid range down. Your idea would be feasible, but the factory subwoofer is awful, and the factory speakers would not be able to keep up with the Sundown 12" and amp, which leads us to this.

All of that aside, I would LOVE for the solution to be a quick and easy DSP because I could spend that money elsewhere on the car. Alas, that doesn't solve the problem as anyone who has listened to or owns a B8 Audi with the B&O stereo can attest to. Multiple Audi forums corroborate this.

FWIW I've read that the drivers and amp are not manufactured by Bang & Olufsen, but the system is "tuned" by them, thus allowing them to call it a Bang & Olufsen system. If this were an A8 with the big B&O system with the motorized tweeters in the dash, I'd agree with you and say a DSP alone is the way to go.
If you want quick and easy, active 3-way won't fit the bill. Tuning an active 2-way setup can be tough, and time consuming enough, active 3-way complicates that significantly more. A DSP is an incredibly powerful tool, arguably the most important piece to a great sounding car, but the tool is only as good as the person using it, so you'll either have to spend a lot of time tuning, or you'll have to pay someone who is competent to do it for you.

If the problem is primarily the lower end, I think you can get away with upgrading the sub, and maybe adding a simple EQ. If you gut the system, and start from scratch with a DSP, I suspect it will take a decent amount of time/money to get you to where the system sounds better than it does now.
 

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Well we already know that the factory speaker fit the factory location, and that they are able to be wired up.
So getting some evidence as to whether they sound good or bad before changing them makes senseto me.
(Just sayin)
 

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Well we already know that the factory speaker fit the factory location, and that they are able to be wired up.
So getting some evidence as to whether they sound good or bad before changing them makes senseto me.
(Just sayin)

Agreed. I have no experience in Audi's but have put many miles in VW's with the Fender audio systems, completely stock (used to lease VW's). IMO, those are pretty damn good systems for a non-luxury volume brand and I've had the drivers out and the look/feel pretty stout. I'm pretty sure if one were to DSP/aftermarket amp them, they'd squeeze even better SQ out of that system.

That being said, I'd be very interested, if I were you, to first do everything but replace the factory drivers.

If you think they can't keep up with your sub/amp, why not amp the front speakers too?

Then if you get to that point, then cross the finish line and replace the drivers.
 

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What do you not like about the B&O system? I listened to a '14 Q5, all stock with the sub/sub amp upgraded to an Si BMmk4 & Zapco ST850. I thought it sounded wonderful!

From what I remember, the speaker locations looked identical or very similar to yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for the input guys.

I should have been clearer about tuning the DSP and what I meant by quick and easy. I have basic experience with a DSP and REW. I'm looking forward to learning the ins and outs the DSP and I love tinkering/tuning so that's no problem. I have a few decent shops where I live that have some really stellar guys that can always help if needed.

Based on the experiences of others with this stereo and my own ears (coming from a car with 2 way passive Hybrid Audio Technology speakers that were driven by the aforementioned Arc 300.4), the front stage as it is is not what I want. It's not bad, but it's loud enough, there is distortion at volumes that I would consider to be not that loud, and it simply is not as clear as I would like.

That being said, let me phrase my question this way: How much of an appreciable difference in SQ is there between a 2-way passive Audiofrog GS 6" and 1" setup, and a 3-way active anything setup with 6", 3", and 1" drivers?

I'd really like to go 3-way active not only for my personal listening, but as an exercise in learning as well.
 

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Having owned a 2012 S4, and then a 2015 SQ5 (both with B&O systems), here's what I'd recommend:

If you're getting a DSP, then go full active... at least on your front stage. You won't regret it.

There are a number of good processors out there. My preference is the Helix DSP-Pro, but I wouldn't discount a number of other brands (including the new Dayton one).

I would also strongly recommend getting the mObridge DA3. It already has an 8 channel DSP built in. Obviously, it isn't packed full of features, like a Helix DSP, but it has everything you'd need to tune a nice sounding system (it's what I used in my S4). Even if you get a separate DSP, it can be used as the interface only, between the MMI and the separate DSP. Plus, if you go crazy and run out of DSP channels (like I did in my current BMW build), you can use a couple channels from the mObridge to run the sub.

If you want to do a 2-way (and can afford these), then I would 100% recommend:
Sinfoni Tempo 10 tweeters in the sails.
Dynaudio Esotar 6.5" in the doors.
This was the absolute best sounding 2-way I've ever owned. Had this combo in my S4.

If you want to do a 3-way, then I would recommend:
Audiofrog GB60 in the doors
Audiofrog GB25 in the dash (3" won't fit - too big)
Sinfoni Tempo 10, or Audiofrog GB10 in the sails
I'm a sucker for the Tempo 10 tweeter... but it really is THAT GOOD.
I had this setup in my SQ5... and it is definitely better sounding than a 2-way. A lot better.
 

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Thanks for the input guys.

I should have been clearer about tuning the DSP and what I meant by quick and easy. I have basic experience with a DSP and REW. I'm looking forward to learning the ins and outs the DSP and I love tinkering/tuning so that's no problem. I have a few decent shops where I live that have some really stellar guys that can always help if needed.

Based on the experiences of others with this stereo and my own ears (coming from a car with 2 way passive Hybrid Audio Technology speakers that were driven by the aforementioned Arc 300.4), the front stage as it is is not what I want. It's not bad, but it's loud enough, there is distortion at volumes that I would consider to be not that loud, and it simply is not as clear as I would like.

That being said, let me phrase my question this way: How much of an appreciable difference in SQ is there between a 2-way passive Audiofrog GS 6" and 1" setup, and a 3-way active anything setup with 6", 3", and 1" drivers?

I'd really like to go 3-way active not only for my personal listening, but as an exercise in learning as well.
3-way is not better than 2-way. There are some advantages and disadvantages to both configurations that are important to consider. I would take an expertly tuned 2-way setup over an amateur tuned 3-way setup every time.

A 3-way setup is great because you can easily split the bandwidth up so that each speaker only has to play what it's best at playing, the tweeters play the highs, midrange play midrange, etc. You also usually have an advantage by keeping most of the vocal information withing a single pair or speakers. We are very sensitive to the frequencies in the vocal range, so tuning issues withing this range can be easy to hear.

A 2-way has the advantage of simplicity, both with regard to install, but also with regard to acoustics. The ideal stereo system would have a single full range driver for the left, and one for the right. All of the sound would be produced from the exact same point, keeping everything perfectly in phase. Phase is important to the way we hear, and getting 4 speakers in phase is significantly easier than getting 6 or more speakers in phase. The advantage of having speakers in phase can easily over shadow the benefits of a 3-way setup, if that 3 way setup isn't optimized.

There cases where one setup is better than the other, but in general neither one is better, they both have pros and cons. Personally I've decided that tuning a 3-way front stage is a huge pain, to the point where I would much rather run 2-way. It takes a lot of time to tune a 3-way front stage before you are even at a point where it's on par with the 2-way, let alone better.

I've run both, and I'm not trying to discourage you from running a 3-way setup, I'm just helping you understand that the tuning challenges can easily make your amazing speakers sound pretty bad. Tuning is very time consuming, tuning a 2-way is exponentially easier than tuning a 3-way, and depending on a few factors can sound every bit as good.

Consider how much time and attention you're interested in spending on this project, just getting a 2-way setup optimized will take hours, and likely several weeks to dial in (assuming you're tuning with a mic, and working weekends and some evenings), triple that for a 3-way.
 

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...
A 3-way setup is great because you can easily split the bandwidth up so that each speaker only has to play what it's best at playing, the tweeters play the highs, midrange play midrange, etc. You also usually have an advantage by keeping most of the vocal information withing a single pair or speakers. We are very sensitive to the frequencies in the vocal range, so tuning issues withing this range can be easy to hear.
...
All was good GiJoe... is it easier for the three way when the cross over slopes are steeper?
And what vocal band are you talking about? (low-Hz to high Hz)
 

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All was good GiJoe... is it easier for the three way when the cross over slopes are steeper?
And what vocal band are you talking about? (low-Hz to high Hz)
"In telephony, the usable voice frequency band ranges from approximately 300 Hz to 3400 Hz"

Obviously, the range will vary, but this is a good example of where the majority of the vocal information is. Depending on the speakers used, you can get most of the vocal information from the midrange speaker.

I wouldn't necessarily say that steeper slopes are any better for a 3-way setup, I think there are just too many variables. Ultimately the final frequency response is what matters, the crossover points and slopes are just used to get the best frequency response.
 

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You're already getting a lot of good feedback, so I don't have too much to add. I do want to ask though, if the stock midbass drivers are 8" (even if they are shallow) why are you only looking at 6"-7" drivers to replace them. There are some excellent options out there for shallow 8" midbass drivers these days. And depending on the door design, you might have room for a non-shallow 8" midbass with the right motor design.
 

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Good idea, and the factory speakers aren't that bad acutally, but there is definite room for improvement from the mid range down. Your idea would be feasible, but the factory subwoofer is awful, and the factory speakers would not be able to keep up with the Sundown 12" and amp, which leads us to this.

All of that aside, I would LOVE for the solution to be a quick and easy DSP because I could spend that money elsewhere on the car. Alas, that doesn't solve the problem as anyone who has listened to or owns a B8 Audi with the B&O stereo can attest to. Multiple Audi forums corroborate this.

FWIW I've read that the drivers and amp are not manufactured by Bang & Olufsen, but the system is "tuned" by them, thus allowing them to call it a Bang & Olufsen system. If this were an A8 with the big B&O system with the motorized tweeters in the dash, I'd agree with you and say a DSP alone is the way to go.
Thanks for creating this thread, I was about to do the same.

A couple weeks ago I picked up a 13 S5 and after a stage 2 tune, Audio has been on my mind and the primary focus in my shop. I've sourced the plug that goes from the B&O amp to the rest of the system - I've made a few prototype plug/housings so I can simply adapt my amps directly to the the existing speakers. If you'd like one, I'd be more than happy to ship one over, just PM me.

Congrats on the car!

-S
 

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Discussion Starter #17
You're already getting a lot of good feedback, so I don't have too much to add. I do want to ask though, if the stock midbass drivers are 8" (even if they are shallow) why are you only looking at 6"-7" drivers to replace them. There are some excellent options out there for shallow 8" midbass drivers these days. And depending on the door design, you might have room for a non-shallow 8" midbass with the right motor design.
Good idea actually. I hadn't considered it because I'm told that the space back there really is THAT shallow. I'm trying to minimize the amount of fabrication that will be required, and everything I've seen points to the fact that a traditional 8" won't fit. The shallow 8" is a nice idea though. This is all very preliminary as I unfortunately can't do the install myself, and have to have a shop do it. I'd hate to have my guy break the door down only to find out whatever drivers I have are too big!

toitle thanks that's generous of you! Can you explain exactly what plug you're talking about and what it does?
 

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Good idea actually. I hadn't considered it because I'm told that the space back there really is THAT shallow. I'm trying to minimize the amount of fabrication that will be required, and everything I've seen points to the fact that a traditional 8" won't fit. The shallow 8" is a nice idea though. This is all very preliminary as I unfortunately can't do the install myself, and have to have a shop do it. I'd hate to have my guy break the door down only to find out whatever drivers I have are too big!

toitle thanks that's generous of you! Can you explain exactly what plug you're talking about and what it does?
It's no problem, I like helping out and... it's just as easy to build ten as it is one :)

The plug can be found behind the access panel on the drivers side (US) of the trunk. The plug feeds power to the stock B&O amp as well as having all of the speaker outputs.
In the latest iteration of my setup I haven't replaced any speakers except the sub. The stock speakers aren't bad, it's the B&O processing that wrecks everything. I needed to retain the center channel as I always have passengers, it's my "road trip" car, so...

Mobridge -> Alpine PXA-H800 -> Amps -> OEM Plug -> speakers.

It makes for a clean and easy install. There's a guy here in Austin that makes the best sub enclosures for Audi's. It retains the factory parcel shelf location and is unobtrusive. You get about .7 cu/ft of airspace. There's another guy who makes enclosures to fit in the slot on the passenger side of the trunk - I'm not a fan, you only get about .4 cu/ft of space and it's not very secure. Poor design in my opinion.

The speakers in the B&O are FaitalPro. The dash and rear parcel shelf mids are 3Fe22's, I haven't done any research on the lower door speakers or sail tweeters, but, they do have that square-slotted-basket that Faital uses. I'm going to try to squeeze some Beyma 8's in that location this weekend. They'll fit, I have no real doubts.

I'm really liking this current setup and I think that after I clean it up a bit, it'll stay just like it is. Stage is solid and wide, never wanders. I like it.

The pink plug in the pic is what I'm talking about, see attached (not my car).

 

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Discussion Starter #19
The more I think about it, a setup like yours sounds like the way to go. That DSP and adding a sub could be perfect. Couple questions for you: 1. Are you talking about Chris Bowen? His stuff looks fantastic. Which one of the JL 10w3 or the Audison sub do you recommend with respect to volume vis a via the stock speakers? 2. Have you put any thought in to swapping the dash speakers with Audison Voce 3.0s? The guys on Audizine seem to love that solution, as it's a like for like speaker replacement.

Congrats on the car too! A Stage 2 S5 is MIGHTY quick! What color is it?
 

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The more I think about it, a setup like yours sounds like the way to go. That DSP and adding a sub could be perfect. Couple questions for you: 1. Are you talking about Chris Bowen? His stuff looks fantastic. Which one of the JL 10w3 or the Audison sub do you recommend with respect to volume vis a via the stock speakers? 2. Have you put any thought in to swapping the dash speakers with Audison Voce 3.0s? The guys on Audizine seem to love that solution, as it's a like for like speaker replacement.

Congrats on the car too! A Stage 2 S5 is MIGHTY quick! What color is it?

It does seem and wise easy to follow an established route to success.
 
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