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Discussion Starter #1
What do you guys aim for when doing an on axis install? Are you aiming the left and right side toward each ear? Or are you aiming to one focal point like the headrest or tip of your nose? I don't really consider the dome light or aiming the speakers between the passenger and diver seat as on axis. Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on speaker placement with laser pointer.
 

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I aimed a little behind the headrests at a point centrally, it put both drivers approx 15 degrees off axis which meant the response from both was as similar as it could’ve been (won’t be exact due to different symmetry of driver to windows etc for reflections)
 

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I was involved in a similar post a few months back on here. I made a statement about some a-pillars that turned out beautiful but I thought it looked like the speakers were aimed at the chest and not the head. I said that they would sound a lot better if they were tilted up a bit. People on here that know more than me responded back saying that it doesn't matter due to beaming. AS long as the speakers are playing below the beaming frequency and they are not too far off axis then staging, phase and imaging will all be fine. That being said, on my last install I used a laser and aimed my midrange and tweeter to a common spot on the headliner and my center and staging are the best they have ever been. This could also be due to the fact that my tuning abilities have improved greatly over the past few years.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I was involved in a similar post a few months back on here. I made a statement about some a-pillars that turned out beautiful but I thought it looked like the speakers were aimed at the chest and not the head. I said that they would sound a lot better if they were tilted up a bit. People on here that know more than me responded back saying that it doesn't matter due to beaming. AS long as the speakers are playing below the beaming frequency and they are not too far off axis then staging, phase and imaging will all be fine. That being said, on my last install I used a laser and aimed my midrange and tweeter to a common spot on the headliner and my center and staging are the best they have ever been. This could also be due to the fact that my tuning abilities have improved greatly over the past few years.
I tried aiming the midrange and tweeter toward each ear. The tweeter is aimed a little bit higher that I would wan't but its probably less than 15 degrees off axis at most.

I definitely agree with you about on axis installs. In my last install, I aimed the mids off axis toward each other in the a pillar. Setting the time alignment was a bit harder because I had to account for reflections etc. I personally think on axis gives you that pin point center image everyone is after. I feel like if I'm fabricating something I might as well aim the speaker on axis this time.
 

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I tried aiming the midrange and tweeter toward each ear. The tweeter is aimed a little bit higher that I would wan't but its probably less than 15 degrees off axis at most.

I definitely agree with you about on axis installs. In my last install, I aimed the mids off axis toward each other in the a pillar. Setting the time alignment was a bit harder because I had to account for reflections etc. I personally think on axis gives you that pin point center image everyone is after. I feel like if I'm fabricating something I might as well aim the speaker on axis this time.
Reflections don't have anything to do with TA. The reflection will arrive some time after the fundamental wave, you can delay the fundamental all you want and the reflection will still arrive the same amount of time after.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Reflections don't have anything to do with TA. The reflection will arrive some time after the fundamental wave, you can delay the fundamental all you want and the reflection will still arrive the same amount of time after.
Well when I used a measuring tape it definitely wasn't the exact measurement. In the past, using a measuring tape got me very close when setting the TA. My left midrange is way off axis compared to the right side. It takes more EQ to get the response the way I want. When I installed on axis, there is way less EQ involved to match the left and right side. The TA is also perfect from just regular measurements. Not much adjustment was needed. The imaging is much better with the on axis install. Maybe its my tuning skills but I had way less tuning to do when on axis.
 

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Well when I used a measuring tape it definitely wasn't the exact measurement. In the past, using a measuring tape got me very close when setting the TA. My left midrange is way off axis compared to the right side. It takes more EQ to get the response the way I want. When I installed on axis, there is way less EQ involved to match the left and right side. The TA is also perfect from just regular measurements. Not much adjustment was needed. The imaging is much better with the on axis install. Maybe its my tuning skills but I had way less tuning to do when on axis.
EQ sure, but not TA. A speaker that is beaming will fall off when off axis, so you'll want to correct that with EQ, the left speakers will be more off axis than the right, so you'll need to EQ them differently. But EQ is not TA. TA is a very simple function of distance and the speed of sound. Any delay you add to the fundamental signal will affect the reflections exactly the same.
 

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Well the pinpoint image would totally be with tuning because I’ve heard several 2way systems with mids in the lower doors sounds pinpoint. The aiming and positioning would contribute more to stage width and depth. I can share my findings with you if you’d like later on, kinda busy right now
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Well the pinpoint image would totally be with tuning because I’ve heard several 2way systems with mids in the lower doors sounds pinpoint. The aiming and positioning would contribute more to stage width and depth. I can share my findings with you if you’d like later on, kinda busy right now
To be honest, tuning a 3-way is a different ballgame than tuning a 2-way setup. I haven't heard a 2-way that sounds as good as a properly tuned 3-way setup. Tuning a 2-way setup is super easy when you don't have many crossover points you can play with.
 

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What do you guys aim for when doing an on axis install? Are you aiming the left and right side toward each ear? Or are you aiming to one focal point like the headrest or tip of your nose? I don't really consider the dome light or aiming the speakers between the passenger and diver seat as on axis. Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on speaker placement with laser pointer.
It all depends on customer, speaker and end results... my personal truck, A- pillars are aimed to the drivers headrest a the doors are aimed to the dome light. But this is not always possible. Aiming to the dome light is good. Some speaker perform better slightly off "axis" say 10*. Its best to play with different angles to see what sounds best for your speakers and vehicle.


To be honest, tuning a 3-way is a different ballgame than tuning a 2-way setup. I haven't heard a 2-way that sounds as good as a properly tuned 3-way setup. Tuning a 2-way setup is super easy when you don't have many crossover points you can play with.
I disagree, I find tuning 3 way much easier and quicker than a 2 way.
 

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That was the op who said that a 2way is easier to tune and by the way, if the 2way is setup with the same attention to aiming and positioning like we do with a 3way And not just put the mid in the door and hope for the best it’ll be hard to beat by a 3way in the lanes.
 

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That was the op who said that a 2way is easier to tune and by the way, if the 2way is setup with the same attention to aiming and positioning like we do with a 3way And not just put the mid in the door and hope for the best it’ll be hard to beat by a 3way in the lanes.
Absolutely, a well tuned 2-way, with careful driver selection and install is NOT inferior to a 3-way setup. Both configurations have pros and cons, but if someone thinks that a setup with more speakers will be better, they’re mistaken. It might be better, it might not, but more speakers is just as much of a disadvantage than it is an advantage.
 

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Difficulty or ease of tuning depends on the response and limitations of the drivers used. I find neither more than the other, personally. It's all about tradeoffs which can come with both. This is why some don't mind spending a bunch more to get well-behaved drivers regardless One of the easiest and nice performing 2-ways was the Satori mated with KAXBLTWT. Crossover points between were no issue and both are pretty linear in response. 3-way allows for more flexibility since none of the drivers are required to span many octaves. However, adequate skill in tuning is important with both.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Absolutely, a well tuned 2-way, with careful driver selection and install is NOT inferior to a 3-way setup. Both configurations have pros and cons, but if someone thinks that a setup with more speakers will be better, they’re mistaken. It might be better, it might not, but more speakers is just as much of a disadvantage than it is an advantage.
I could't disagree more. Your TA for 4 speakers is way easier than setting the TA on 6 speakers. Not to mention getting the phase correct with all drivers. In a 2-way most people just crossover the tweeters and midbass as low as possible and call it a day. When you have a 3-way it opens up a whole new world of possibilities for tuning and crossover slopes. Obviously more speakers make the situation worse off if your tuning skills aren't the greatest. Comparing a 2-way setup is like comparing bookshelf speakers to towers. You can get it to sound good, but a set of nice tower speakers will trump bookshelf speakers in every way if designed properly.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
It all depends on customer, speaker and end results... my personal truck, A- pillars are aimed to the drivers headrest a the doors are aimed to the dome light. But this is not always possible. Aiming to the dome light is good. Some speaker perform better slightly off "axis" say 10*. Its best to play with different angles to see what sounds best for your speakers and vehicle.




I disagree, I find tuning 3 way much easier and quicker than a 2 way.
I would love to know your tuning process. If you think tuning a 2-way is easier than a 3-way you are crazy. You have to EQ and TA an extra set of drivers. You probably can tune a 3-way quicker but it definitely is not done properly. Maybe with a passive crossover tuning them is just as quick.

Speakers don't sound better off axis BTW. You are just loosing frequency response in your tweeters by having them off axis. I've never understood when people say drivers sound better off axis. There is no scientific reasoning behind that explanation.
 

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I could't disagree more. Your TA for 4 speakers is way easier than setting the TA on 6 speakers. Not to mention getting the phase correct with all drivers. In a 2-way most people just crossover the tweeters and midbass as low as possible and call it a day. When you have a 3-way it opens up a whole new world of possibilities for tuning and crossover slopes. Obviously more speakers make the situation worse off if your tuning skills aren't the greatest. Comparing a 2-way setup is like comparing bookshelf speakers to towers. Can you get it to sound good, but a set of nice tower speakers will trump bookshelf speakers in every way if designed properly.
Towers don't trump bookshelves because they have more drivers, they don't necessarily trump bookshelves at all. A tower is usually bigger, so it's easier to get low end response, but that doesn't help with the high frequencies at all. No, they will not trump bookshelves "in every way." They MAY trump bookshelves on the low end.

The ideal stereo loudspeaker setup would consist of 2 point-source drivers that can play flat from 20hz to 20khz. If you can eliminate the need for extra crossovers, level matching, phase problems, etc. then you have an advantage. A good tune is certainly powerful, and can really help get multiply drivers to sum nicely, but if it can be avoided in the first place that would be ideal.

The key to a good 2-way requires more care in selecting drivers, placing/installing drivers, and tuning, but done well it can be every bit as good as a 3-way setup.
 

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I would love to know your tuning process. If you think tuning a 2-way is easier than a 3-way you are crazy. You have to EQ and TA an extra set of drivers. You probably can tune a 3-way quicker but it definitely is not done properly. Maybe with a passive crossover tuning them is just as quick.

Speakers don't sound better off axis BTW. You are just loosing frequency response in your tweeters by having them off axis. I've never understood when people say drivers sound better off axis. There is no scientific reasoning behind that explanation.
Are you mixing up 2-way and 3-way in your first paragraph?

Speakers absolutely can sound better off axis. If they have a rising frequency response using them off axis and using beaming to your advantage can make them sound better.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Are you mixing up 2-way and 3-way in your first paragraph?

Speakers absolutely can sound better off axis. If they have a rising frequency response using them off axis and using beaming to your advantage can make them sound better.
For tweeters? Most people in this post seem to like 2-way. By aiming your tweeters off axis you are just losing out on your higher frequencies?

I don't think a 2-way can beat a 3-way if drivers are installed and tuned properly. Your pretty much stuck with midbass crossed under 2-3000hz coming out of your off axis door panel. Not to mention the driver installed by your leg or foot. Also trying to EQ the L + R side independently when something is that off axis is tough. When you have a 3-way you can crossover lower at 500hz for the tweeter and midrange. This allows more frequency to be projected above the dash and is less affected by your sitting position or a passengers seating position. I would take 500hz and higher above the dash over 2-3000hz above the dash any day.
 

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Sound to me like your talking from YOUR experience and expertise, I had the privilege to work on a system that was built by a guy that won world championships and it only had 2 full range 8”,(1) 12” sub and (2) 4” for rear fill. Now to the ordinary guy this is a stupid setup but when it’s designed by someone who won championships and is a meca finals judge, this is telling me that the least amount of driver carefully placed will do damage. As I said before, if your gonna stick the speakers in the door and hope for the best you’ve already failed. I spent weeks shifting around speakers and tweeter trying to get the best positions to maximize stage width and depth and looking back at the angles I found to be optimal, the only certain change I could make to maximize stage width without rear fill is switching the mid for a wideband so don’t sleep on 2way systems. I think you were the person I was telling to not put the esotar tweeters in the doors, I have a really good idea what your car sounds like if that was you and understands why you hate 2way.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Sound to me like your talking from YOUR experience and expertise, I had the privilege to work on a system that was built by a guy that won world championships and it only had 2 full range 8”,(1) 12” sub and (2) 4” for rear fill. Now to the ordinary guy this is a stupid setup but when it’s designed by someone who won championships and is a meca finals judge, this is telling me that the least amount of driver carefully placed will do damage. As I said before, if your gonna stick the speakers in the door and hope for the best you’ve already failed. I spent weeks shifting around speakers and tweeter trying to get the best positions to maximize stage width and depth and looking back at the angles I found to be optimal, the only certain change I could make to maximize stage width without rear fill is switching the mid for a wideband so don’t sleep on 2way systems. I think you were the person I was telling to not put the esotar tweeters in the doors, I have a really good idea what your car sounds like if that was you and understands why you hate 2way.
I am talking from my own personal experience. I don't compete in sound quality events and I don't have any friends in this hobby. I would rather go off of personal experience then letting a few people online influence my opinion that have 2-way install. A wideband is a different story that a standard 2-way with a tweeter. Most people on here are not installing widebands on axis because that actually requires fabrication work. A wideband installed on axis is nice because you are covering a majority of the frequency spectrum with just two drivers. In that case, I agree with you widebands in a 2-way can definitely do some damage if aimed on axis.

Not sure who you are talking about with the esotar tweeters. I have never owned a pair of those drivers in my life. I wish I had the courage to shell out that kind of money on those drivers. If I had esotar drivers, there is no way I am installing those off axis in a door. You could buy a driver for a fraction of the price, install it on axis with way better staging. I never understand people that put expensive drivers in stock locations and expect magic. Believe me if I had esotars everything would be aimed on axis in the install.

Just curious, what widebands was he using in the install?
 
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