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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Black Hole 5

Anybody have any experience using it or would recommend it going in the door behind a speaker? I'm trying to get better acoustic performance out of my mid-bass. Right now I have just deadner and nothing else. Closed cell foam or deflex pads are an option but I'd like to maximize the benefits and trying to find the right product.

Thanks
 

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For a door application, you would be better off taking a look at the Blackhole Tile product. The Tile product is almost identical to Blackhole 5, except it is cut into 4"x4" squares and has a thin layer of a micro-perforated latex-like covering on it to make it much more water resistant.

The last thing you want in your doors is some sponge that soaks up water and then molds. Can you say "What's that smell???"

We are using 24 tiles per door in our 2000 VW GTi arranged in a checkerboard fashion to the outside door skin. This maximizes the number of surfaces (each tile now has 5 faces, as opposed to 1 big sheet) to help absorb unwanted standing waves.

This stuff is the easiest-to-install stuff we've used in a door. Just wipe the surface down with some good cleaner, then peel and stick.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Do you have a link for it? I can't find it anywhere to see it
 

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Re: Black Hole 5

I'm trying to get better acoustic performance out of my mid-bass.
You've built a sufficient baffle that separates the front wave from the back wave by blocking at least 1/4th of the lowest wave the speaker plays and doesn't resonate within it's passband?

Closed cell foam or deflex pads are an option but I'd like to maximize the benefits and trying to find the right product.
Why would you put CCF behind a speaker? What's that going to accomplish?

Hey here's an idea, search DIYmobileAudio!!!!!! This product has been discussed AT LENGTH many times. You'll not only find what it is made of and how to make your own, but you'll learn the benefits and drawbacks of using it in the first place. Sheesh, American laziness is really spreading north. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: Black Hole 5

You've built a sufficient baffle that separates the front wave from the back wave by blocking at least 1/4th of the lowest wave the speaker plays and doesn't resonate within it's passband?
I've done the best I could but I'm curious if it could get better by blocking and absorbing the waves.

Why would you put CCF behind a speaker? What's that going to accomplish?

Hey here's an idea, search DIYmobileAudio!!!!!! This product has been discussed AT LENGTH many times. You'll not only find what it is made of and how to make your own, but you'll learn the benefits and drawbacks of using it in the first place. Sheesh, American laziness is really spreading north. :(
Well for starters since it's been discussed so many times you should know what it should accomplish.

Also PLEASE find me all the black hole 5 discussion threads that have apparently been discussed "AT LENGTH many times" because I'm very curious to read these threads.
 
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Re: Black Hole 5

I've done the best I could but I'm curious if it could get better by blocking and absorbing the waves.
Lets get down to brass tacks. What waves are you trying block? What waves are you trying to absorb? Do you understand that those are two completely different things/problems that need to be addressed by two different solutions? I'm trying to help foster an understanding here.

Well for starters since it's been discussed so many times you should know what it should accomplish.
I do, so my question was: why WOULD YOU consider doing such a thing? Because other people do it? Again, trying to get back to a basic material application understanding.

Also PLEASE find me all the black hole 5 discussion threads that have apparently been discussed "AT LENGTH many times" because I'm very curious to read these threads.
Where's bobditts when we need him!!?!? :(
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Re: Black Hole 5

Lets get down to brass tacks. What waves are you trying block? What waves are you trying to absorb? Do you understand that those are two completely different things/problems that need to be addressed by two different solutions? I'm trying to help foster an understanding here.
My main goal is to try and replicate the appropriate height since it's in the door and at the bottom. The mid-bass covers 60Hz - 200Hz and I would like to see how I can bring the sound stage higher and I'm hoping by absorbing some of the back waves it would do so.

I do, so my question was: why WOULD YOU consider doing such a thing? Because other people do it? Again, trying to get back to a basic material application understanding.
To be honest, yes. A lot of people recommended it and I figure it's worth a shot. I've tried it before in my old car with CCF and it did improve it (could be bias) but it seems a lot of people recommend it so why not try it? I haven't found too much evidence of people saying it makes it worse.

Where's bobditts when we need him!!?!? :(
Trust me, I've tried doing a search to get a better understanding of this product. I've read a ton of items on CCF but could find very small amounts of info other than "nothing's better than black hole 5" ... hence I figured to start a new thread and see if anyone had any experience with it.

I probably wasn't clear enough in the first post as to what I'm trying to do. Overall I'm going for competitions this year again and right now I'm working hard to prep the sound stage. I want to find ways to increase the volume without turning up the gains and make it sound better by removing rattles and back waves.
 

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MrLister - You can find a little information about Blackhole 5 and the Tile product over at ORCA Design & Manufacturing.
If you want a more scientific explanation of why/how this stuff works, I'd recommend emailing their Lead Engineer and Designer. His contact information can be found on that site.

Good luck on your quest, and don't let the others who just like to smack people in the dirt get you down. I've stopped visiting and posting on this site just because of attitudes.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
MrLister - You can find a little information about Blackhole 5 and the Tile product over at ORCA Design & Manufacturing.
If you want a more scientific explanation of why/how this stuff works, I'd recommend emailing their Lead Engineer and Designer. His contact information can be found on that site.

Good luck on your quest, and don't let the others who just like to smack people in the dirt get you down. I've stopped visiting and posting on this site just because of attitudes.
Great, thank you. I e-mailed Alan to get better clarification of the product and if it can benefit me.
 

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At 200Hz, you will need something at least 15" thick to have much effect. At 60Hz, 50". That's not going to happen inside a door. You may want to avoid people who want to smack you in the dirt but you'll also want to take endorsements from people with sponsorships from the company with a grain of salt. I don't think anyone is suggesting that BH5 isn't an effective material when used for the right job, but a non-contiguous barrier is always going to be a waste.

By all means, gather all of the information you can and experiment. Since you are primarily looking for diffraction and refraction of the back wave, there are all sorts of inexpensive things you can try to see if the concept has any merit before you commit to an expensive solution. I'd start with blocks of foam and a temporary adhesive. I can almost guarantee that sealing the front wave off from the back wave is going to be your best bet.
 

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Attitudes! Yea, attitudes...I totally agree. Like the attitude of the RedGti person in this thread, that incidentally, already posted the info from the Focal engineer about BH5. Found this with that search function....

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-fabrication/47551-do-you-deaden-inside-your-sub-box-4.html

Tell you what, this is DIY forum...that means do it your ****ing self. Black Hole 5 is a black hole for your credit card! There's not once ounce of magic in it's "patented" design....good God....
 

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Re: Black Hole 5

I've tried it before in my old car with CCF and it did improve it (could be bias) but it seems a lot of people recommend it so why not try it? I haven't found too much evidence of people saying it makes it worse.
You're obviously free to do what you want, experiment and learn by trial and error. Go for it man.

Here's the straight dope on CCF - it doesn't absorb. Doesn't absorb sound. Doesn't absorb water. Go ahead and try it around your house some time. Makes for terrible clean up around the kitchen. :)

Also, a sufficient baffle (as defined above) will successfully block the back wave to the degree that it should not need an absorptive material for it. IIRC 3/4" MDF is good for about 12dB of blocking at 200hz. Since you need to get down to 60 hz, then you need more layers or more density of a blocking material. [think lead].

If you want to learn about absorbers, play with open cell foam. Place it near a speaker and listen. Then move it further and further away from it and listen to what happens. What I think you'll find is that it's more effective as you move it away. This is an acoustical law that states that absorption of sound is dependent on velocity. When the foam is next to the speaker the velocity is slower = less absorption. More velocity = greater chance for absorption.

If you put OCF next to a speaker (assuming it's at a thickness that can significantly affect that wave in the first place) how good of a job can it really do??????

Next q: should you really put OCF in a car door where water can turn it into stinky, moldy sponge?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: Black Hole 5

You're obviously free to do what you want, experiment and learn by trial and error. Go for it man.

Here's the straight dope on CCF - it doesn't absorb. Doesn't absorb sound. Doesn't absorb water. Go ahead and try it around your house some time. Makes for terrible clean up around the kitchen. :)

Also, a sufficient baffle (as defined above) will successfully block the back wave to the degree that it should not need an absorptive material for it. IIRC 3/4" MDF is good for about 12dB of blocking at 200hz. Since you need to get down to 60 hz, then you need more layers or more density of a blocking material. [think lead].

If you want to learn about absorbers, play with open cell foam. Place it near a speaker and listen. Then move it further and further away from it and listen to what happens. What I think you'll find is that it's more effective as you move it away. This is an acoustical law that states that absorption of sound is dependent on velocity. When the foam is next to the speaker the velocity is slower = less absorption. More velocity = greater chance for absorption.

If you put OCF next to a speaker (assuming it's at a thickness that can significantly affect that wave in the first place) how good of a job can it really do??????
Ok, thanks for the input. I will do all I can to make the best baffle but I will probably try and see if this stuff makes a difference. It's not that badly priced compared to how much the rest of the system and car cost me.

Next q: should you really put OCF in a car door where water can turn it into stinky, moldy sponge?
It would have to be treated to make sure it doesn't absorb water unless going with the tile.


For anyone interested here is the response from Alan:
1 inch thick acoustic foam does not absorb much sound below 1000 Hz.
Black Hole 5 has good absorption down to 100 Hz.
It is the middle layer of floating mass loaded vinyl that adds so much low frequency extension.

Since voice frequencies fall between 80Hz and 800 Hz, the Black Hole 5 greatly improves clarity, delineation and focus.

We have a special version of Black Hole 5 that is water sealed for inside car doors.
It is called Black Hole Tile.
 

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can you guys help me i am wanting to make the most out of my fiberglassed box that i ordered and right now i have it in a sealed enclosure around 1.0-1.1 cu ft.



this is all i have

some raam mat, half sheet of damp pro, tons of ensolite, some luxury liner pro

i am having issue with low bass notes and think the box is leaking around the mounting baffle. i can feel to areas where the w7 is not flush with the baffle and think air is leaking there. i could try remounting it but the box had to be modded to fit the w7 and there is not much baffle left to play with.

i was thinking about using closed cell foam or windows gasket from lowes or rope caulk to seal up the baffle and the sub.

i want to lay raam mat around the inside of the box and half sheet of damp pro directly behind the sub. i was thinking of trying to line the box with luxury liner since it is an OCF would that help since ensolite or CCF would hurt.

i was going to add polyfill since the w7 needs a 1.3cu enclosure and i think by adding polyfill it can only help
 

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1 inch thick acoustic foam does not absorb much sound below 1000 Hz.
Black Hole 5 has good absorption down to 100 Hz.
It is the middle layer of floating mass loaded vinyl that adds so much low frequency extension.

Since voice frequencies fall between 80Hz and 800 Hz, the Black Hole 5 greatly improves clarity, delineation and focus.

We have a special version of Black Hole 5 that is water sealed for inside car doors.
It is called Black Hole Tile.
Kudos to Alan for almost telling you that the product won't be effective for your application. What isn't clear in his explanation is that the MLV increases "low frequency extension" to transmitted sound. For you that would mean outside the car. There was never any doubt that it would work well as a barrier/absorber of of noise coming from outside the car if the outer door skin is completely covered.

If you do decide to go ahead, I would love to see before and after RTAs. That would show any potentially audible change. You can be sure that you won't see any change in your target frequency range using thin CCF inside the door.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Kudos to Alan for almost telling you that the product won't be effective for your application. What isn't clear in his explanation is that the MLV increases "low frequency extension" to transmitted sound. For you that would mean outside the car. There was never any doubt that it would work well as a barrier/absorber of of noise coming from outside the car if the outer door skin is completely covered.

If you do decide to go ahead, I would love to see before and after RTAs. That would show any potentially audible change. You can be sure that you won't see any change in your target frequency range using thin CCF inside the door.
Hi Don,

I might do that, I ordered two sheets of the black hole 5 to try out. ($40 total) and I'll do some before and after to see the results on the RTA.
 

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I ordered two sheets of the black hole 5 to try out. ($40 total)
You mean two tiles? Where did you order it? Just curious.

Your other pre-packaged alternative is Whispermat which I think you can get through Parts Express. Same as BH5 without the VE damper and magic sprinkle coating.

Check out the STC and NRC data on it. You can clearly see how well 1" open cell foam does at absorbing (NRC) the wavelengths you're after (200 hz and down). If fact, below 200 hz one could almost say it does nothing. It's pretty reasonable to assume BH5 doesn't do anything either.

So, back to what Don said, that's one hell of an expensive decoupled barrier. And if you do use the tiles and leave even a tiny little gap to allow the noise to pass through, then that barrier effect is lost. All you're left with is mass stuck to the door which you can easily get with $1 worth of clay stuck to the surface.

http://www.silentsource.com/barriers-whispermat.html
 

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can you guys help me i am wanting to make the most out of my fiberglassed box that i ordered and right now i have it in a sealed enclosure around 1.0-1.1 cu ft.



this is all i have

some raam mat, half sheet of damp pro, tons of ensolite, some luxury liner pro

i am having issue with low bass notes and think the box is leaking around the mounting baffle. i can feel to areas where the w7 is not flush with the baffle and think air is leaking there. i could try remounting it but the box had to be modded to fit the w7 and there is not much baffle left to play with.

i was thinking about using closed cell foam or windows gasket from lowes or rope caulk to seal up the baffle and the sub.

i want to lay raam mat around the inside of the box and half sheet of damp pro directly behind the sub. i was thinking of trying to line the box with luxury liner since it is an OCF would that help since ensolite or CCF would hurt.

i was going to add polyfill since the w7 needs a 1.3cu enclosure and i think by adding polyfill it can only help
weather strip, sure. polyfill, check. search feature:(=fail...

plus...what a thread jack. no class at all, just a random thrown in request for spoonfeeding. Spoon? Check.

Ready? Here comes the plane...open wide.......
 
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