[ousooner2]

Hey guys, on my way to work today I realized I wasn't very happy with SQ of my setup. The sound I'm hearing is a little bloated in the bass/midbass region I believe and I'm not sure how to counter that. What area's do I need to look at and cut on the 3sixty.2 to see if that's the problem? Albums like "A Perfect Circle- 13th Step" (along with many other rock tracks) sound a little...not so much hollow, but just not clear and transparent like. Why's it so hard to describe sound!? haha.

Any help will be tried today when I get home and I'll report back. I'd like to figure this out. I feel like my setup should be better. I've got what seems to be plenty of midbass and it can be snappy when needed. Kick drums, etc sound great..but maybe a tad bloated and not defined and tight sounding.

Setup is in sig. Here's my x-over points. All EQ is flat as of right now. I set gains using 50hz, 1kHz & 4kHz tone

Sub - 75hz/24db
Mids - 75hz-3kHz/12db
Tweets - 3kHz/12db

 

[minbari]

car ussualy have a pretty big hump around 200-300 hz area and can make things sound a little heavy. play in that area and see if you can fix it.

best bet is to get an RTA and see where your peaks are exactly.

 

[its_bacon12]

Try different sine waves - 100, 150, 200, 300hz. Easy way is if you play different sine waves at same volume, the one that stands out can be attenuated. Probably something related to cabin gain.

 

[ousooner2]

car ussualy have a pretty big hump around 200-300 hz area and can make things sound a little heavy. play in that area and see if you can fix it.

best bet is to get an RTA and see where your peaks are exactly.

Try different sine waves - 100, 150, 200, 300hz. Easy way is if you play different sine waves at same volume, the one that stands out can be attenuated. Probably something related to cabin gain.

Thanks guys. I'll give this a try and see what I get. I've got the JL app on my phone that has an SPL meter...not sure how well that works though. Even if it doesn't work all that well, I still used it to try to level match L/R mid/tweets. I've also got the StudioSix RTA app that has 1/3 octave RTA, but again..not sure how accurate that is on an Iphone4

 

[trumpet]

You've gotten great advice within the first couple of replies. I listen to that same cd, The Thirteenth Step, quite heavily in my car. Have you tried lower crossover points on the subwoofer and mids?

 

[ousooner2]

You've gotten great advice within the first couple of replies. I listen to that same cd, The Thirteenth Step, quite heavily in my car. Have you tried lower crossover points on the subwoofer and mids?

Nope. I'll give that a shot too though. How low were you thinking??

Also, is this a well mastered cd and I'm hearing something wrong with my setup or do you hear this also? Sometimes it can sound good but other times it sounds bloated/heavy, like it's trying to hard and gives off a muffled sound

 

[GlasSman]

You have to find out the response of your vehicle.

Just from the description of your problem I would say like most vehicles the upper midbass is enhanced and that has to be addressed.

Adjusting X-overs points could help but one or two parametric EQ bands could be all you need to fix the problems.

You need to first map out your system response.....then you'll know where to attack the problem.

 

[trumpet]

My sub is low passed at 50 Hz 18 dB/octave and the 6.5" subs are high passed at 50 Hz 24 dB/octave. The Thirteenth Step sounds very well mastered. It sounds consistently clear and well-behaved throughout the album. Are there certain songs that don't sound quite as good for you?

 

[Oliver]

Hey guys, on my way to work today I realized I wasn't very happy with SQ of my setup. The sound I'm hearing is a little bloated in the bass/midbass region I believe and I'm not sure how to counter that. What area's do I need to look at and cut on the 3sixty.2 to see if that's the problem? Albums like "A Perfect Circle- 13th Step" (along with many other rock tracks) sound a little...not so much hollow, but just not clear and transparent like. Why's it so hard to describe sound!? haha.

Any help will be tried today when I get home and I'll report back. I'd like to figure this out. I feel like my setup should be better. I've got what seems to be plenty of midbass and it can be snappy when needed. Kick drums, etc sound great..but maybe a tad bloated and not defined and tight sounding.

Setup is in sig. Here's my x-over points. All EQ is flat as of right now. I set gains using 50hz, 1kHz & 4kHz tone

Sub - 75hz/24db
Mids - 75hz-3kHz/12db
Tweets - 3kHz/12db

Typical door mounted mid problem, get kick panels and vent them to the outside of the car

 

[sqnut]

The sound I'm hearing is a little bloated in the bass/midbass region I believe and I'm not sure how to counter that. What area's do I need to look at and cut on the 3sixty.2 to see if that's the problem? Albums like "A Perfect Circle- 13th Step" (along with many other rock tracks) sound a little...not so much hollow, but just not clear and transparent like. Why's it so hard to describe sound!? haha.

Any help will be tried today when I get home and I'll report back. I'd like to figure this out. I feel like my setup should be better. I've got what seems to be plenty of midbass and it can be snappy when needed. Kick drums, etc sound great..but maybe a tad bloated and not defined and tight sounding.

Setup is in sig. Here's my x-over points. All EQ is flat as of right now. I set gains using 50hz, 1kHz & 4kHz tone

Sub - 75hz/24db
Mids - 75hz-3kHz/12db
Tweets - 3kHz/12db

This is the FM graph that shows your ears sensitivity at frequencies across the ten octaves. Your ears are less sensitive to the lower frequencies and highly sensitive to the 1-6khz range with a peak around the 3-4khz range. The sensitivity again starts rolling off from about 6khz on.

Next you have to factor in the effects of your environment. Frequencies from ~ 800-1khz up are highly prone to reflections and hence you will have summations and cancellations due to the reflections. I.E. big peaks and dips in this range. This is also the range where you are best at picking these imbalances. The 1-5khz range is generally where you will cut heavily. Although your sensitivity is reducing from 6khz up, you will cut 7-8khz more than say 5, because 7-8khz is where sibilance is. At the lower end start cutting around 80khz. Let the cuts increase to about 200hz. Then keep 200-400hz at more or less the same level. You also have different response levels from left and right side across all 10 octaves. But leave that for now.

Hence, you will use your eq to adjust for both the way you hear and the impact of your environment. Your not going to hit it first time Use the above as a guide line. Each car and placement will give a different FR curve. This is at best a general starting point. Set it, run with it for a couple of days and see what defects you can pick out. Then come back and try to resolve those....

See if it helps in making the vocals more accurate and transparent. You should also get a much tighter lower end. Oh! and put the mids and tweets on steeper slopes ~24db/oct.

Make sure you get your drivers in phase first.

Let's see how it turns out.

 

[ousooner2]

You have to find out the response of your vehicle.

Just from the description of your problem I would say like most vehicles the upper midbass is enhanced and that has to be addressed.

Adjusting X-overs points could help but one or two parametric EQ bands could be all you need to fix the problems.

You need to first map out your system response.....then you'll know where to attack the problem.

You talking about RTA? Quality rta that is. Not my phone lol

I wish I could afford to pick something up like an RTA right now but even if I could, I feel like it'd be above my head. Maybe not. I mean sometimes the sound sounds so dull and lifeless that I'm just willing to sell my setup and run a single Dayton HO 12 and a 4 channel or something. I know once I make that connection and really realize what I'm doing and where to make cuts, etc..I'll fall in love again.

My sub is low passed at 50 Hz 18 dB/octave and the 6.5" subs are high passed at 50 Hz 24 dB/octave. The Thirteenth Step sounds very well mastered. It sounds consistently clear and well-behaved throughout the album. Are there certain songs that don't sound quite as good for you?

I'll listen on the way home and try to figure out what songs and particularly what times in those songs sound...wrong to me.

Typical door mounted mid problem, get kick panels and vent them to the outside of the car

Any pics of what this looks like though?? I don't think I've ever seen this

This is the FM graph that shows your ears sensitivity at frequencies across the ten octaves. Your ears are less sensitive to the lower frequencies and highly sensitive to the 1-6khz range with a peak around the 3-4khz range. The sensitivity again starts rolling off from about 6khz on.

Next you have to factor in the effects of your environment. Frequencies from ~ 800-1khz up are highly prone to reflections and hence you will have summations and cancellations due to the reflections. I.E. big peaks and dips in this range. This is also the range where you are best at picking these imbalances. The 1-5khz range is generally where you will cut heavily. Although your sensitivity is reducing from 6khz up, you will cut 7-8khz more than say 5, because 7-8khz is where sibilance is. At the lower end start cutting around 80khz. Let the cuts increase to about 200hz. Then keep 200-400hz at more or less the same level. You also have different response levels from left and right side across all 10 octaves. But leave that for now.

Hence, you will use your eq to adjust for both the way you hear and the impact of your environment. Your not going to hit it first time Use the above as a guide line. Each car and placement will give a different FR curve. This is at best a general starting point. Set it, run with it for a couple of days and see what defects you can pick out. Then come back and try to resolve those....

Will do. I'm going to go home and give all this a try

See if it helps in making the vocals more accurate and transparent. You should also get a much tighter lower end. Oh! and put the mids and tweets on steeper slopes ~24db/oct.

I can put them on 24db slopes, but when I do it sounds like the tweeters "level" or loudness decreases a bit and doesn't sound as clean. Must just be a specific frequency just below that 3kHz x-over that is louder.

Make sure you get your drivers in phase first.

As far as this phase stuff, can't you just switch the pos/neg at the amp and see if the sound changes as far as "better or worse"? I mean I understand the physics of it..the wave travel, etc etc...but is that all I need to do to check phase?

Let's see how it turns out.

Again...big thanks guys! It's my last semester so things are getting pretty hectic and of course..it's hard as hell. Any little bit of help makes this a ton easier on me. Appreciate it

 

[minbari]

one thing to consider when you change the slope from 12dB to 24dB is since the slope is steeper (faster) you will need to adjust the freq down a bit.

3khz on a 12dB will be 12 dB down at 1.5khz and 24 dB down at 750 hz.
3khz on a 24dB will be 24dB down at 1.5khz

if you adjust the HPF to something like 2-2.5khz it would be the same 12dB down at around 1.5khz and 24dB down at around 1 khz. it might solve what you are hearing.

 

[ousooner2]

one thing to consider when you change the slope from 12dB to 24dB is since the slope is steeper (faster) you will need to adjust the freq down a bit.

3khz on a 12dB will be 12 dB down at 1.5khz and 24 dB down at 750 hz.
3khz on a 24dB will be 24dB down at 1.5khz

if you adjust the HPF to something like 2-2.5khz it would be the same 12dB down at around 1.5khz and 24dB down at around 1 khz. it might solve what you are hearing.

I see I see. Didn't think about that! I never took these ID xs28 tweets any lower than 3kHz b/c I didn't want to hurt them, but I guess if they can handle it then why not lower it and put it on a steeper slope. Seems like most like the steeper slopes

So if I did 2.5kHz/24db...if my math is correct...the level at 1octave below the x-over is NOT as loud on this x-over/slope combo. Meaning I could possibly go lower correct?


100db Ref.

3.0kHz/12db: 100db @ 3.0kHz; 88db @ 1.50kHz
2.5kHz/24db: 100db @ 2.5kHz; 76db @ 1.25kHz (88db @ 1.875kHz)

Edit:
2.0kHz/24db: 100db @ 2.0kHz; 76db @ 1.00kHz (88db @ 1.5kHz)

So the 3kHz/12db and 2kHz/24db are the same db's at 1 octave down, but latter stay's a bit louder down to 2kHz. Is this safe or should I run 2.5kHz?

 

[minbari]

yup, the only place it will be louder is between 2500-3000 hz since you lowered the initial value there.

 

[ousooner2]

Good news. I'll try the 2.5kHz/24db. Going home to try all this now

 

[sqnut]

With the 360.2 in the loop I would not look at polarity reversal to get drivers in phase. The thing with phase is that it is relative and not absolute. Hence you need a min of 2 drivers playing to have them in or out of phase. You can have 5 drivers playing out of phase and try to dial them in or you can do it two drivers at a time and then try and connect everything. It's simpler dialing it in two drivers at a time.

Start with your sub and far mid. Leave your sub at 0 and start adding delay to the far mid. You want to get to the point where you feel/hear your sub frequencies flowing out of your far mid. Once you reach this point add and reduce delay in small steps. Hear the difference. You don't want the sub to be masking out the lower end from your mid bass. Once you have your sub and far mid in phase, cut the sub and play the two mids only.

When you're dialing in the two mids it's easier to do it with a miono signal eg a talk show on AM radio. Leave the far mid where it is and add delay to the near mid. Get to the point where the vocals focus up from the front. The one thing about drivers in phase is that it gives you a sense of unity/whole to the sound. Once you get to this zone tweak the delay on the near mid in small steps. Two much delay between the mids and you will feel like the unity is broken and the sound is pulling towards the two drivers. First add then reduce the delay, do you see and hear a difference? Now cut the near mid and play only the far mid and far tweet.

Add delay to the tweet till you hear the two drivers as one source point. If you have your tweets mounted higher than your mids you should hear the tweeter or there abouts as that source point for the sound. Again do some fine tweaking. Now repeat the same exercise for the near mid and tweet.

Now play all the drivers together. You're not going to hit perfection in one go, so don't expect that. But your drivers should be in better relative phase. Think of it as a starting point. I'd do this before working on the eq.