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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm going to be coming into a possible bit of spare cash in Feb/March time. I know this is jumping the gun, however I'm thinking about going back to my routes i.e. going for a pair of 4" in the dash, though 4" components.

Taking into account my little Toyota (that i refuse to sell) has done 152,000 miles, the value of the speakers will be more than the car!!


Obviously, Im worried that the 4's won't be able handle the lower frequencies with any degree of ... punch, so I'm thinking that I need a 6.5 or 8' to help the front stage.

Currently:
Morel Tempo 6 in the kick panel

Morel: DOTECH OVATION 4" - I don't know how much the 4's cost, however the 5.25's go for £379
Morel Dotech Ovation 5 5.25 130mm Components

CDT:

1) CDT HD 42
2) CDT ES-42i
3) (here goes) ES 02AL or ES 02BL hybrid Mids/Tweets and some form of either 6.5 or 8 sub from the CDT refurbished section.
Shop CDT Audio - Subwoofers

or i could say "Stuff it" and just buy the Dynaudio set up and stick the mids in the kick panel ...

Dynaudio Esotec System 222 5.75" Component Set 16cm - Esotec System 222 from Dynaudio

I would like the speakers I use to handle a bit of power, hence that's why i've gone for good, well engineered brands, with speakers that i think could take a bit off power.

Question: I do like the idea of the CDT Hybrids, with one CDT sub in the passenger footwell would leave too much of a whole in the frequency range?

BTW its now boxing day here. Hope, for those who celebrate Christmas, hope you had a good day.
 

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It sounds like what you want would be served well by the CDT Super 2.2 component system. This comes with the ES-02 mid/tweeters and 6.5" subs, plus passives to give the perfect crossover point.

You'll be missing not only output but also proper sound staging if you run the ES-02 pair on the dash and only 1 small subwoofer up front. The Super 2.2 set is crossed at 2.5 kHz with the ES-550i passives.

Do you have an amplifier suitable for this system? 150W at 2 Ohms stereo would suffice. Also note you would get better bass extension if you put the 6.5" subs into ported enclosures.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
It sounds like what you want would be served well by the CDT Super 2.2 component system. This comes with the ES-02 mid/tweeters and 6.5" subs, plus passives to give the perfect crossover point.

You'll be missing not only output but also proper sound staging if you run the ES-02 pair on the dash and only 1 small subwoofer up front. The Super 2.2 set is crossed at 2.5 kHz with the ES-550i passives.

Do you have an amplifier suitable for this system? 150W at 2 Ohms stereo would suffice. Also note you would get better bass extension if you put the 6.5" subs into ported enclosures.
I was trying to keep the system as simple as possible. the problem being that the original factory speaker mounts point at your/my knees and they only take 4's. there are no door speaker pods, and i wanted to keep the chopping down to a minimum, hence the 2 hybrid mid/tweets and 1 sub idea.

The Morel Dot's will cost around £350-380 i'm sure. the CDT hybrids seemed like a good idea.





So i guess it's;

1 pr tweets
1 pr 4" mids
1 small sub somewhere

The sub was going in the passengers foot-well


Spot the cheapskate:

 

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Not sure about the new Morel stuff. I have a Dodge Ram 1500 regular cab. I built 2-ways out of Morel MW-113 4” and Focal TN 47 tweeters. Not the best match but I had them lying around from other projects and I felt the most important part of the 2-way was the 113. This is because I built 3 of the 2-ways and put them in the dash stealth and IB. The specs on the 113 I felt were perfect for running IB. I just did some hand calcs for a 2-way 2nd order crossover and built them in some RadioShack plastic boxes. In the hand calcs I added about 6db of resistance to tame the tweeters coming off the windshield. The reason I did 3 was so I could play with an old Audio Control ESP-3 that I had from years ago but never used. I always wanted to play with a center channel so here was my chance. I put a Focal 6.5 in each door. No sub. I run them with an Alpine 7998 and a couple of Rockford amps. Not high end but not Wal-Mart ether.
Here is the deal. The 2-wayMorels that I built will take all I can give them down to about 70Hz before they sound strained. In fact, they image so well I haven’t turned the ESP-3 on in a year. I have read that the Morels have higher than ideal distortion but in a car environment I can’t hear it. Maybe a bit between 63 and 80Hz when I am sitting in my driveway with the truck off and the volume pegged….but not on the road with “reasonable” listening levels. Not bad for a 4”.
I never have gotten the Focals in the doors right. In fact, everything I have put in the doors including the Focal 6.5 sucks. I just built a sub for the back that I will install this weekend or next. So, after that I guess I will be up against the mid bass nightmare for the doors. I’m not into spending big bucks on exotics but I like good sound and am pretty good at getting it. I am looking at a few different drivers for the doors but I need to get the sub and sub amp installed and then move to fixing the crap in the doors.
At any rate the Morel stuff (at least the MW-113 that’s no longer made) is worth its sand in the right application. Sorry for the long wind.

Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Is that link indicative of Uk prices for Morel.
Is that link indicative of Uk prices for Morel.
Ah, captaincable .. I know you! Where do you think I got my love for Morel in the first place:D I'll be coming to you again soon!

\
Not sure about the new Morel stuff. I have a Dodge Ram 1500 regular cab. I built 2-ways out of Morel MW-113 4” and Focal TN 47 tweeters. Not the best match but I had them lying around from other projects and I felt the most important part of the 2-way was the 113. This is because I built 3 of the 2-ways and put them in the dash stealth and IB. The specs on the 113 I felt were perfect for running IB. I just did some hand calcs for a 2-way 2nd order crossover and built them in some RadioShack plastic boxes. In the hand calcs I added about 6db of resistance to tame the tweeters coming off the windshield. The reason I did 3 was so I could play with an old Audio Control ESP-3 that I had from years ago but never used. I always wanted to play with a center channel so here was my chance. I put a Focal 6.5 in each door. No sub. I run them with an Alpine 7998 and a couple of Rockford amps. Not high end but not Wal-Mart ether.
Here is the deal. The 2-wayMorels that I built will take all I can give them down to about 70Hz before they sound strained. In fact, they image so well I haven’t turned the ESP-3 on in a year. I have read that the Morels have higher than ideal distortion but in a car environment I can’t hear it. Maybe a bit between 63 and 80Hz when I am sitting in my driveway with the truck off and the volume pegged….but not on the road with “reasonable” listening levels. Not bad for a 4”.
I never have gotten the Focals in the doors right. In fact, everything I have put in the doors including the Focal 6.5 sucks. I just built a sub for the back that I will install this weekend or next. So, after that I guess I will be up against the mid bass nightmare for the doors. I’m not into spending big bucks on exotics but I like good sound and am pretty good at getting it. I am looking at a few different drivers for the doors but I need to get the sub and sub amp installed and then move to fixing the crap in the doors.
At any rate the Morel stuff (at least the MW-113 that’s no longer made) is worth its sand in the right application. Sorry for the long wind.

Good Luck
I think the 4" speaker idea is a romantic idealism wanting to return my car back to some form of normality. Its not going to happen

1) I've been bitten by the bug
2) Toyota only allowing 4" in the dash that point down at your knees ... oh please Toyota!

I think any 4" up front are going to need some form of stronger midbass reinforcement. Currently I'm giving DLS a go, see how they sound, bought used DLS 5.25 from ebay .. just waiting for them to arrive. However maybe a 6.5" sub up front might help take the strain off the fronts a little bit.

Realistically, I'm not talking about the last word in SQ, my beat up ol' Toyota is a bit of a practice thing at the moment. I'm just trying to show these kids what can be dne with there limited budget.

Focal?? I had a few of the Access speakers... 6.5", 8" two pairs of 6x9's, however when I got into Morel, it was end game for Focal! I guess from my experience in my headphone days, frequency extremes will grab someone, however fatiguing soon becomes apparent. I prefer a warmer sound and Morel do that, but they can also handle a bit of Drum&bass as well. The Focals didn't like being pushed. Good speakers though, however for me its Morel.
 

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I think any 4" up front are going to need some form of stronger midbass reinforcement. Currently I'm giving DLS a go, see how they sound, bought used DLS 5.25 from ebay .. just waiting for them to arrive. However maybe a 6.5" sub up front might help take the strain off the fronts a little bit.

Realistically, I'm not talking about the last word in SQ, my beat up ol' Toyota is a bit of a practice thing at the moment. I'm just trying to show these kids what can be dne with there limited budget.

Focal?? I had a few of the Access speakers... 6.5", 8" two pairs of 6x9's, however when I got into Morel, it was end game for Focal! I guess from my experience in my headphone days, frequency extremes will grab someone, however fatiguing soon becomes apparent. I prefer a warmer sound and Morel do that, but they can also handle a bit of Drum&bass as well. The Focals didn't like being pushed. Good speakers though, however for me its Morel.
The 4” Morels up front do need some mid bass reinforcement. Right now the high pass is @ 100 Hz with a 24 db. slope. They sound better cut off @ 80 but they won’t take as much power and since they are not made any more I don’t want to blow them. They sound a little thin which is to be expected when cut off that high but I set them up for image quality and sound stage and for that they do the job nicely. I have Focal 6.5s” in the front of the doors for mid bass reinforcement. They sound terrible but to be fair it’s not entirely their fault. In fact, I have had Pioneer, Focal, Arum-Cantus and Eminence divers in the doors and they all suck. Lately, I have gone back to the drawing board and this is what I have found. It concerns cabin gain. No matter what mid bass driver I use (some sound better than others but they are all bad), if the LP crossover point gets close to or above about 100 Hz the driver’s boom so bad the audio signal is close to uncorrectable (is that a word?). After researching cabin gain I suspect that it is more this than the driver. According to the math there is one resonance each in the cabin for the length, height, and width distance of the cabin. My truck cabin is a standard cab and the average L x H x W is 70in x 70 in x 70in. I may be wrong about this but my suspicion is that the 3 cabin resonance frequencies are stacking @ 200 Hz. I have not measured the frequency response in the cab but the mid bass behavior certainly seems to point me in that direction. Not sure how I will fix it but I have some ideas and I’m sure I will. I just want to do it with the least amount of equipment installed in the signal path. I don’t want to EQ it out. I have never had good luck with EQs except for very small corrections. I will probably end up with and extremely damped driver and a band pass crossover with some really steep slopes or something of that nature. As for the driver I haven’t chosen one yet.

The Focal mid bass driver resonate the worst of the bunch.

You sound a lot like me in the respect that my system is a work in progress and I get much satisfaction by working on it a correcting the problems by doing the research and the work rather than buying trick parts that in the end are futile in actually fixing the real issues with the system. Getting it right is not easy. But it need not be overly expensive. Just labor intensive. When you do get it right it makes you want to drive just to listen.

MLC
 

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Have a look at non-caraudio brand 4" drivers, there's tonnes available and that wider range gives you more possiblities. Parts Express and Madisound will have a wealth of 4" that will offer you advantages over the limited range from car audio companies.

Altering the angle of the mount will pay dividends-4" are going to be pretty directional and firing down at your knees will put them well off axis-attenuating their output.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I just want to do it with the least amount of equipment installed in the signal path. I don’t want to EQ it out.

I get much satisfaction by working on it a correcting the problems by doing the research and the work rather than buying trick parts that in the end are futile in actually fixing the real issues with the system.
For me cabin gain and db slopes is still very new, but something I need to work at.

As to EQ'ing, i get the gist (link below) that maybe people do need to get to the grass routes, rather than using fancy tech that gets in the way of the single path. However, i guess in the same breathe there's equipment to improve the signal path. For me, its; how do i get to grips with this info, to help my younger friends who have been ... for want of a better phrase ... mis-sold products that don't really meet their needs .. and i'm talking low, low budget stuff.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/122500-quick-note-why-car-audio-sucks.html

at your knees will put them well off axis-attenuating their output.
The best car audio installer in my town actually said that; the sound shouldn't be a problem as it will reflect off my knee/leg

For now having the Morels in the kicks should do. just need to get them fibre-glassed in.
 

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The best car audio installer in my town actually said that; the sound shouldn't be a problem as it will reflect off my knee/leg

For now having the Morels in the kicks should do. just need to get them fibre-glassed in.
You've got knees on the passenger side too-damn those cars are small! Saying "the sound shouldn't be a problem as it will reflect" should have been ringing alarms bells in your head, let alone his-reflections are our nemesis. Sounds to me he doesn't want to do the work-you can read your own reasons into that.

What angle do they point to the floor at? Been many years since I've seen the interior of one of your cars-let alone worked on one
 

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Discussion Starter #11


I don't know the exact angle, but i can find out.

I get a little disheartened when I go to what i feel is a professional company, and that's the advice they give. I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as most people here, but feel that advice wasn't helpful. I know my car looks battered and worn, but i take my sound seriously, restricted only by my lack of knowledge and budget.

Its not me i worry about, but the poor sods they've been advising for the past xx years, if that's the kind of advice they're throwing around!

I'm here because i need serious tutoring, and this forum is a good place for that!
 

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Thanks for the pic.

IMO forget the 4", remove the pocket and replace it with a pod for a 16.5cm, angling the driver up to you. If there's room in the kicks you might be able to squeeze something in there for better PLD-never looked at the kicks in your car and the accelorator tends to get in the way of kick installs in UK cars.

If you go for the door you'd have to cut through the metal behind the driver to allow it to use the door cavity for "box" volume, deaden/damp the crap out of it and seal the service holes up with ply/mdf/perspex-whatever you can get to fit.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for the pic.

IMO forget the 4", remove the pocket and replace it with a pod for a 16.5cm, angling the driver up to you. If there's room in the kicks you might be able to squeeze something in there for better PLD-never looked at the kicks in your car and the accelorator tends to get in the way of kick installs in UK cars.

If you go for the door you'd have to cut through the metal behind the driver to allow it to use the door cavity for "box" volume, deaden/damp the crap out of it and seal the service holes up with ply/mdf/perspex-whatever you can get to fit.
i'm hoping to get a bit of real money coming through soon. One of those claims people got hold of me, and i told them about my Barclay loan from years back and they said i'm eligible for a bit if cash back ... thing. Might get a bit of money from it. If i do, then I think a new .. newer car might be in order. Whatever car I have, i know i'll have to do a proper SD job on it. But; do i do all that work, or do i buy a car with door speaker space etc, something with electric windows (what ever they are, lol) and cruise control. I miss the cruise control from the Merc we (my ex-wife) had.

I'm looking at a Honda Accord. A friend has one, so i'm going to give his ca a good nose around before I buy one. Yep, sad, but all i'm thinking is; where do i place the speakers, how big are they, is the boot big enough to get a decent sub in there.

2000 Honda Accord 2.0i VTEC SE 5dr Auto Hatchback


Post a shot of the top of the dash where it meets the windshield while sitting in the drivers seat.
give me a day or so.
 

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i'm hoping to get a bit of real money coming through soon. One of those claims people got hold of me, and i told them about my Barclay loan from years back and they said i'm eligible for a bit if cash back ... thing. Might get a bit of money from it. If i do, then I think a new .. newer car might be in order. Whatever car I have, i know i'll have to do a proper SD job on it. But; do i do all that work, or do i buy a car with door speaker space etc, something with electric windows (what ever they are, lol) and cruise control. I miss the cruise control from the Merc we (my ex-wife) had.

I'm looking at a Honda Accord. A friend has one, so i'm going to give his ca a good nose around before I buy one. Yep, sad, but all i'm thinking is; where do i place the speakers, how big are they, is the boot big enough to get a decent sub in there.

2000 Honda Accord 2.0i VTEC SE 5dr Auto Hatchback




give me a day or so.
Be careful if they want any money up front-a friend had the same happen to him and ended up £300 out of pocket! He paid on his card thinking he'd be safe if it went wrong-still trying to get the money back from 2010...
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I'm playing about with the Morel's positioning before a fibreglass them in. Also, I actually want to try the HAT Mirus or Imagine's before I make it a more perminate addtion to the car.

 

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Provided you make a suitable baffle you'll be able to fit any driver in to it-what sort of airspace can you get behind the drivers? You'd need to know that to make sure you don't end up strangling the driver.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Provided you make a suitable baffle you'll be able to fit any driver in to it-what sort of airspace can you get behind the drivers? You'd need to know that to make sure you don't end up strangling the driver.
To be honest, i can't get much space behind the driver, so i've looked at shallow mount speakers. However in all honesty i think a new car is needed. Still hoping the PPI claim will be favourable!

The speakers have acoustic foam behind them for now, but as and when i do the final install, I'll think twice about putting them in. I've thought a 6.5 sub upfront. I tried my JL Audio CP108 LPF off and it worked ok, but took up the whole front floor pan.
 

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Shallow mount doesn't mean small box volume; the driver needs to have an enclosure of sorts behind it. Too small an air volume and you'll reduce the low end output of the driver and might as well stick with 4" if you catch my drift
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Shallow mount doesn't mean small box volume; the driver needs to have an enclosure of sorts behind it. Too small an air volume and you'll reduce the low end output of the driver and might as well stick with 4" if you catch my drift

oops, forgot about that! I think with the Toyota, there aren't too many options. I could go 4" comps, but i'll have to add something to boos the midbass somehow, whether its two mids floor mounted or something, or a dedicated 6.5 bass or midbass. I can't see any other way around it.
 
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