DiyMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am a newbie to DIYMA and this is my first post.

As you may be able to username I am into SACD's. I recently was able to find new double din SONY XAV-W1 head unit on ebay so I purchased it. I now have it installed on my 2009 VW Jetta. To validate the install will actually play 5.1 channel SACD recordings, I had the pioneer TS-CX7 speaker installed (no subwoofer yet). The system sounds twice as good as the stock Jetta head unit.:)

I was going to do one massive upgrade for the four door speakers, center channel speaker, sub, DSP and amp(s). After do some pricing, this will cost me between 11K and 13K install before I do my first sound check. Speakers being Morel elates or German Meastro with JL Sub and a decent class D amps along with all the sound treatments that is generally required. So I am now thinking of doing it one step at a time instead of going in with both feet starting with the center channel.

Why the center channel first? Because most 5.1 channel recorded SACD's have the center channel doing all the heavy lifting. Also, this would IMO give me the biggest sound improvement since my present center channel does not even come up to par with the factory speakers.

I listen mainly to Jazz, Jazz vocals and R&B. I like SQ but my system must be smooth, warm and soft. Not clinical, hard or bright.

The Question: Given my taste, what speaker would you choose for my center channel?

I understand that all of the other speakers I choose would need to be selected based off of this selection and not the other way around. Money is not a factor for the center channel and I will need to have a custom pod built since the VW Jetta does not with one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,524 Posts
I would get a JBL MS-8 and run its Logic7 surround music algorithm, which was designed for the car with the its unique and difficult environment in mind. Instead of the ideal hope you have speakers all around you in a treated home room 5.1 multichannel encoding you get in a 5.1 high rez disc.

Set the head unit to stereo mix down and let the MS-8 do it's job.

So, to answer your question, go with a center that conforms to what is required for the MS-8.

Here's the thread that will give you the best idea of what that is.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
684 Posts
FWIW this coming from a fellow SACD (and DVDA) lover.
I have (for left and right) a Dyn 360 set and then replaced the Dyn tweeter with a B&W 801 home tweeter.
For my center I have a Dyn 7" inch, MD140/2 mid and B&W tweeter.
Had to cut the dash a lot but that's ok.
Most will tell you that the center should match the mains. I would agree.

How low will you play the center? How much cutting or how big a pod are you willing to have? How loud does it need to get?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,234 Posts
Having both true 5.1 and the MS8 in the same car, a true 5.1 system sounds so much better than the MS8. If the format had caught on I would never have installed the MS8 but with the limited selection available I figured I wasn't missing out on much by adding the MS8.

For my 3-way+center setup it made a huge difference when I went with a 6.5" center to match the rest. However, the cheaper center can't keep up with my Dyns so I leave it off most of the time. I think it's very important to have a strong center.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I am planning on integrating a high quality DSP but not to mix down an already great studio mix. I would use it to mix up my two channel cd recordings into better sounding music than the Dolby DSP provide with the Sony XAV-W1 (but only when the mode warrants it).

Buy the way, just got in the mail today, the just release limited edition of Pink Floyd's Wish You Where Here SACD! So my long car ride to work tomorrow... just got shorter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
FWIW this coming from a fellow SACD (and DVDA) lover.
I have (for left and right) a Dyn 360 set and then replaced the Dyn tweeter with a B&W 801 home tweeter.
For my center I have a Dyn 7" inch, MD140/2 mid and B&W tweeter.
Had to cut the dash a lot but that's ok.
Most will tell you that the center should match the mains. I would agree.

How low will you play the center? How much cutting or how big a pod are you willing to have? How loud does it need to get?
Thanks a lot for the information. I actually did several A/B test with several Dyn models against the German Meatsro models and my ears like the GM's a little better each time. I go back over twenty years with MB Quarts being one of my first mid-fi home audio purchases. So the GM's already had a leg up on the Dyn's.

I would love to know how you got one of the most precise B&W home audio tweeter (in it's price range) to work in your car install? Are you running you 3-way active?

I went into this not planning on playing the center very low at all. But everyone is telling me something I already know from setting up various home audio 5.1 setups... the center must be in balanced with the front mains or the sound stage just doesn't blend well and it screws up your ears. That being said I want a near factory look, so I am thinking of going co-axial to avoid too much cutting in the center console.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
684 Posts
Yes, 3 way active plus Velodyne sub.
You remember the tweeter housing on top of the older 801's? Series 2 or 3 Matrix? I have several of them if you would like one. $10 each is what I paid so $10 it is. Would work well integrating it into a center. Got them and several tweets from the former B&W repair guy in Denver years ago. Also got LM50 car drivers from the guy. When a warranty repair came in on a mid he would get a full replacement driver from B&W. Then he would recone with the 4ohm (and bigger surround) LM50 cone. The LM50 driver is the same frame-basket as the mid from the 801!
Also have a few pair of new LM60's on the shelf.
Integration of B&W teeter was easy. We actually compared them in the van with the MD100 (no comparison) and the MD130. B&W was still better. Never had them up against the Esotar though. The couple installs I've heard the Esotar in leave me thinking it would be tough to beat it.
If your keeping the car a long time I would go all out on the center and not use a coax. Even a nice two way set up playing down to +-125hz would be worth it IMHO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
Greetings!!

Gentlemen, please remember that unless you have a universal CD player in your car, SACD will not play. I do not know of a head unit made today that will decode the DSD layer on the CD. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is pretty much it.

Some SACD's do have a dual layer of Red Book CD recorded with them and you can play those discs on the Sony you purchased. Now, if that Sony unit can play SACD's and decode them in the DSD format, please let me know as I would be purchasing one tomorrow!

Nick Wingate
National Training Coordinator
Focal/Mosconi/Illusion Audio America
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
Greetings!!

Ok, my mistake!!! I just found the tech readout on the Sony in question and it does indeed support SACD format! Praise the Lord!!!! I will be finding one today to go audition!!! Please ignore the response above!!!

Nick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,273 Posts
I won't speak for brands, but I've always been in favor of having the left, center, and right channel speakers all from the same company and series. You want the voice-matching so you can have a seamless pan across the soundstage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
684 Posts
Nick, the pisser is that there are DVD-A players (Alpine, Pioneer and I think Kenwood had one too) and the Sony SACD unit. But there is not one that does both.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,273 Posts
I won't speak for brands, but I've always been in favor of having the left, center, and right channel speakers all from the same company and series. You want the voice-matching so you can have a seamless pan across the soundstage.
You probably want the front 3 channels to all have the same *size* speakers, as well. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Yes, 3 way active plus Velodyne sub.
You remember the tweeter housing on top of the older 801's? Series 2 or 3 Matrix? I have several of them if you would like one. $10 each is what I paid so $10 it is. Would work well integrating it into a center. Got them and several tweets from the former B&W repair guy in Denver years ago. Also got LM50 car drivers from the guy. When a warranty repair came in on a mid he would get a full replacement driver from B&W. Then he would recone with the 4ohm (and bigger surround) LM50 cone. The LM50 driver is the same frame-basket as the mid from the 801!
Also have a few pair of new LM60's on the shelf.
Integration of B&W teeter was easy. We actually compared them in the van with the MD100 (no comparison) and the MD130. B&W was still better. Never had them up against the Esotar though. The couple installs I've heard the Esotar in leave me thinking it would be tough to beat it.
If your keeping the car a long time I would go all out on the center and not use a coax. Even a nice two way set up playing down to +-125hz would be worth it IMHO.
The tweets are nice... no VERY nice but that would be a little bigger project than I am looking to take on right now. Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
238 Posts
Match drivers if you can...same tweeters for sure, and mids from the same product line.

I am not above cutting a hole in the center of my dash. Been there, done that!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,524 Posts
Nick, the pisser is that there are DVD-A players (Alpine, Pioneer and I think Kenwood had one too) and the Sony SACD unit. But there is not one that does both.
And the real real pisser is that all those units don't have the analog output resolution to resolve even a CD formats digital resolution potential.

A 24bit track is into the 0.00000...% THD range in digital resolution.
A 16bit CD track is at .0003%
And the best analog outputs out there (including home gear)?

Don't ask about other stuff like noise floor. No there isn't a speaker system out there with the dynamic range potential to use much over what a CD can provide. Not to mentioned you would probably go deaf if it could. Oh and does anyone know of a song that doesn't have a background noise lower that -70dB. Because if you don't then the -96dB of a CD should be more than adequate while playing music. ;)

Boulder 1021 disc player Specifications | Stereophile.com

"Boulder 1021 disc player Specifications
Sidebar 1: Specifications
Description: Upsampling disc player with remote control, volume control, and 24-bit DACs running at a minimum rate of 352.8kHz. Plays CD audio discs and CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R data media. File formats supported: WAV, AIFF, FLAC, MP3, OGG Vorbis, with sample rates up to 192kHz. Digital outputs: AES/EBU via XLR. Analog outputs: 2 pairs balanced (XLR). Display output: 640x480 VGA on 15-pin D connector. Inputs: Track data via Ethernet on RJ45. Volume-control range: 80dB in 1.0dB steps. Frequency response: 20Hz–100kHz, +0/–0.05dB (upper limit dependent on medium's sample rate). Maximum output level: 4.0V, fixed or variable. Output impedance: 100 ohms. Signal/noise: 120dB (no ref. given). THD+noise: <0.0045%, 20Hz–22.05kHz. Power consumption: 85W.
Dimensions: 18" (460mm) W by 9.25" (235mm) H by 15.25" (390mm) D. Weight: 46 lbs (21kg) net, 60 lbs (28kg) shipping.
Finish: Satin aluminum.
Serial Number Of Unit Reviewed: 10927.
Price: $24,000."

FYI, if a high resolution track would still be truncated to the analog limits of the player. IOW it would not help if this player could play 24bit tracks.

Not that any of this matter since a CD's digital resolution limits are already well beyond what the human ear can resolve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,524 Posts
I won't speak for brands, but I've always been in favor of having the left, center, and right channel speakers all from the same company and series. You want the voice-matching so you can have a seamless pan across the soundstage.
In a car with all the near field reflections and a seating position that give you a different off axis response for each driver?

Same size? Probably. At least it will keep the mess through out more of the bandwidth and make it more uniform.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,394 Posts
IMO, you would want the center midbass to have the same LF output as both the left and right. If you had 6s in the fronts, I would do an 8 or ported 7 in the center.

You do not realize how much LF is in the center until you try to make a single 6 play it.

You probably want the front 3 channels to all have the same *size* speakers, as well. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,273 Posts
IMO, you would want the center midbass to have the same LF output as both the left and right. If you had 6s in the fronts, I would do an 8 or ported 7 in the center.

You do not realize how much LF is in the center until you try to make a single 6 play it.
OK then... midrange/midbasses and tweeters... identical sizes and models at all positions: L-C-R-LR-RR

:D
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top