[icehellion]

Super Deluxe Boom Box? Oh crap.

Are you happy with the mid bass response from the rear woofers or would you upgrade to 8" or larger subwoofers?

 

[avanti1960]

i threw out the boom box term only as a comparison- it sounds very very good with the highs cut from the rear speakers- but the image is definitely smaller and easy to pinpoint-
when i turn the high pass filter from 2K to pass, it opens up the depth of the sound. for example, a cymbal crash from the right tweeter is a foot wide when the rear highs are cut above 2K. when the rear highs are fully passed, the same cymbal crash is two if not three feet wide, splashing on he entire front door panel or so it seems.
just when i thought everything was perfect on the way to work this morning, it went to crap on the way home. when playing FM all of the vocals are now biased to the left- even after much L/R centering.
So I spend another hour trying to correct it- my ears are tuned out!

 

[icehellion]

I've heard some people run everything flat, that its more balanced and simple...

 

[avanti1960]

Super Deluxe Boom Box? Oh crap.

Are you happy with the mid bass response from the rear woofers or would you upgrade to 8" or larger subwoofers?

I'm "OK" with the mid-bass output when the EQ fortifies the 100 to 250 Hz bands~ 3db or so.

 

[avanti1960]

well i tried something smart today after still having a horrible image despite the L/R EQ centering exercise- it was somewhat OK with TA off but not so good when TA was turned on- and I have grown accustomed to the TA.
-
on a curious note, several tones in the upper midrange spectrum just would not center- and even seemed to get louder on the opposite side than the side i was boosting- many tones also started to "ring" and present a second tone on top of the first that also seemed to be on a different side than the non-ringing tone. i assume these were all cabin reflections- what does one expect trying to play musical tones in a small glass cubicle (from the arms up anyway).
-
regardless, i just re-centered all of the EQ levels and made them flat. since the original TA shifted everything too far to the right, i decided to give DEX's very smart internal brain another shot at getting the TA and image centered correctly- but played a little trick on it.
I made a "crash test dummy" out of pillows and a sleeping bag and a roll of shop towels for the "head". I tie strapped the mic to the vertical roll of shop paper towels which was set on the top of the "dummy". Before I did this, I carefully measured where my nose (center) and ears were using some reference measurements from the same surfaces of my car. I then put the mic on the dummy to represent where the center of my ears would be.
Because the original TA placed the image way right, I moved the mic center on the dummy a full 12" to the right of my previous autotunes when the mic was strapped to the center of my headrest. The 12" shift was an attempt to reduce the relative output of the passenger side speakers and increase the driver's side so as to shift the image to the left from the previous autotunes.

Well I it rip- still cracks me up that you need to operate the controls and read the faceplate when it's facing ceiling of my car- and I hoped my dogs would keep quiet and that no planes or trains would come by to upset the autotune.

When it was finished, I hopped in and checked out the results. Once again, the autotune really lowered the subs level drastically, but that was easy to fix. a week later and i can rip through the DEX's menus pretty well.
The new image was now to strong to the left- I had made some progress but overshot the mark. Easy to fix? Hope so.
I replaced the crash test dummy and this time moved the mic 6 inches toward the left, biasing it 6 inches to the right of the autotunes I did last week-end. Let it rip, and voila! The new image is nearly dead center! It sounds GREAT! I drove around for an hour playing tunes and am quite pleased with the results.

 

[avanti1960]

pics of the dummy, also posted in the DEX auto EQ poll.

if you don't like the autotune results, try moving the mic, and don't block / alter the sound reception by putting it on the headrest.

 

[igrzelczyk]

pics of the dummy, also posted in the DEX auto EQ poll.

if you don't like the autotune results, try moving the mic, and don't block / alter the sound reception by putting it on the headrest.

All in all, this is a pillow that does nothing for the greatest impact on the rebound, and so have the driver's legs and not his body. just clip the microphone to the headrest (right) and move the seat forward a clove, then convert the indicated times at 0 Sub .Sorry for poor English ...
I greet

 

[WLDock]

Regarding the rear speakers, or "rear fill" as some people call it, I definitely like the added mid-bass the rear door mid-woofers provide.
With the rear speakers on the "LOW" channel on the DEX, I did experiment with cutting the high frequencies out by setting a 2K crossover point for a low pass filter, 18db slope.
To me, and this is probably a personal preference, with all the high frequencies coming from the front speakers it sounded almost too precise, to easy to tell the direction of everything, and made the stage much smaller. I tried this for a day or so. Then I set the read door slope to "PASS" and let the high freqs through once again. Everything opened up, the stage became much larger, wider and deeper, even deeper forward, the vocals became "angelic" again, especially the female vocals. Call it ambience, or whatever but I am one that prefers this setup. It sounds much better to my ears, and I mean much better. My system is slowly becomming an SQ hall and I'm lovin it!

It really is all about how the system is tuned. Take an OEM system for example. Recently I was doing some serious listening in a newer Dodge Journey. The current Chrysler OEM systems are SO much better and better balances vs. systems from just a generation ago. With the BALANCE and FADE in the center position the system does several things pretty well. Midbass is controlled, and full, the overall stage is wide with some depth and ambience, etc. Now as I tried to ajust the fade to the front and slightly to the left, things went to hell! i did not like the overall sound very much....and the midbass dropped waaay off and I could not get it back with just the fronts. So, if a system is tuned properly to run front and rear speakers the overall result can add something rather than take away from the sound.

Nevertheless, there are many systems with just front speakers that can do many things right also because they are tuned to do so. Tunning is key!

 

[avanti1960]

Dock-

I agree completely! My car is about the same internal size as a Journey and I did not realize how good the stock system was until I tried to improve upon it- My first "go round" of aftermarket hardware with basic 10" enclosed sub, basic amp, nice receiver (CDA 117) and what I thought were good comps (Alpine SPR 60C) actually sounder WORSE THAN FACTORY!
Of course, key to this was the fact that I did not amplify the rear door speakers.

I could not get the car to sound right without the rear speakers in the mix- it went to hell without them like your experience in the journey. the car's interior volume and acoustics are the reason- and the fact that the rear doors are much better bass enclosures than the front ones are.
I wouldn't know what to do to tune the system for front speakers only. At this point I don't see why I would want to- my car sounds great as it is.
The time alignment really helped.

 

[avanti1960]

All in all, this is a pillow that does nothing for the greatest impact on the rebound, and so have the driver's legs and not his body. just clip the microphone to the headrest (right) and move the seat forward a clove, then convert the indicated times at 0 Sub .Sorry for poor English ...
I greet

i didn't use the pillow to simulate a body being present in the seat during the autotune. hopefully the pioneer engineers had accounted for this in the autotune calibration- but I do have some doubts.
i used the pillow dummy so i could have a stable base for the mic that was away from the headrest- i found that in order for the final image to be centered, the mic had to be placed in space to the right of the headrest by a couple of inches- make that 50mm for european dimensions!

 

[jodyz]

hopefully the pioneer engineers had accounted for this in the autotune calibration- but I do have some doubts.

Doubtful they would account for a body in a seat. Too many variables. I have the P99RS as well, but in the non-optimum F/R/S config.I tried the auto EQ function, but I think my F/R/S is to blame for my less than acceptable results.

An active 2way front stage is in the planning stages, and possibly a downgrade to the DEH-80PRS before I give my car to my daughter. I'll then move the P99RS to my new car and go nuts with 3way setup.

 

[jcollin76]

I still say just sit in the vehicle during auto tune. This way, whatever effect you body has on reflections, blocking speakers, etc. is accounted for. You listen in the vehicle, tune in the vehicle, if your using the auto function as a baseline...be in the car. Lol

 

[jodyz]

I still say just sit in the vehicle during auto tune. This way, whatever effect you body has on reflections, blocking speakers, etc. is accounted for. You listen in the vehicle, tune in the vehicle, if your using the auto function as a baseline...be in the car. Lol

Not a bad idea, but where do I put the microphone? Should I glue it to my nose? When I get rid of the rear fill, I'll give this a try.

 

[IBcivic]

Not a bad idea, but where do I put the microphone? Should I glue it to my nose? When I get rid of the rear fill, I'll give this a try.

Make yourself a tuning rig

 

[jcollin76]

Not a bad idea, but where do I put the microphone? Should I glue it to my nose? When I get rid of the rear fill, I'll give this a try.

i borrowed one of my daughters headbands. Clipped the Mic to it and put it at about eyebrow line height.
Sit like your going to sit when driving/listening. It made a pretty large difference in the auto tune..

Make yourself a tuning rig

Might as well have a little style while doing it. Lol
Neighbors would freak though....

 

[Wesayso]

Make yourself a tuning rig

Those eyebrows will help limit reflections though!

 

[avanti1960]

Another nice recent discovery is the ability to adjust the level of every channel independently.
I recently went active with the front stage after installing a new JL 300/V2 amplifier and the autotune became really finicky with the position of the mic trying to autotone all 8 channels. The final stage image would shift significantly right or left with just a slight shift in the microphone position- literally a matter of an inch or two to the right or left.

After about 5 tuning cycles I finally settled on one but it was not as good as when the front stage was passive.

The independent level control allowed me to fine tune the autotune results to balance the image.

I'm guessing you could improve the image even more by fine tuning the TA settings but I am hesitant to try it.

 

[jstoner22]

the independent level matching is a huge plus for tuning.

and don't be hesitant! you have a P99, come on! it is meant to be tweaked and fiddled with.
just write down your settings currently if you happen to mess it up.

 

[morning_wood]

Awesome write up! I always wanted to try a p99 but they were never within my price range.

 

[avanti1960]

Well an update for April 21. Last week I installed a class A-B amp to run active on the front stage. It sounds smoother than the class D that was running the fronts previously. There is LOTS of controversy about this opinion and I will not go into it here!
I also built my custom sealed enclosure for the JL 12W3V3 per JL specs. The thing is as solid as a block of granite! It fits in the sub trunk of my car and frees up the main cargo area. The SQ is surprisingly better than ported. I do get some floor vibrations but will correct that today with some velcro to hold down the cargo area floor.

My stage is still not centered very well despite a full week of tuning. Yes I even resorted to sitting in the car with the mic tie-strapped to my forehead and experimented with various positions. The sound sweeps are loud but tolerable but I am still not happy with the TA settings and image. The center fights me to stay hard left. All kinds of reflections to adjust for.
I'm going to attempt some manual TA adjustment today with my handy test CD and see how that goes. It's very frustrating.
Also when I am present in the car during the auto tune, the tonality is a lot more mid range dominant.
I'm going to stick the dummy back in and then attempt to tweak the TA manually.
Hardware is finished- tuning is a bummer!