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Discussion Starter #162
Update 11/17/12

After owning the DEX for 9 months I did something with it today that I had never done before- ran an autotune with automatic network. Why did I do it? Well here are some answers-

1) After 9 months I am still adjusting everything on the fly- tonality, levels, crossovers, time alignment, etc. and I am tired of it. I have a very nice sounding tune and stage- but it does not work for all music- and when I adjust for one (e.g. a bass heavy recordig) everything else sounds poor and vice versa. I want to run the DEX version of a nice tune and commit to it for a while. I am hoping for a nice sweet spot.
2) I read somewhere that the auto network autotune can actually sound better than a custom network tune. Since I had done many custom network autotones and was never happy, i decided to give the auto network autotune a try.
3) Since first installing it last February, I have upgraded every driver in my car to the point where I am satisfied with their quality- and have upgraded the door sealing and deadening as well.
4) I have a hunch that the autotune can generate a more refined EQ than the 31 band graphic can- that it may be continuously variable for for frequency and Q- such that it may smooth out some bass "valleys" in my RTA plots as well as eliminate the touchy midbass resonance I experience from time to time.
5) I just felt like it.

So how are the results? In a word bizarre but very pleasing. I definitely got rid of the midbass resonance issue. The bass is less powerful but the tones sound like tones- very realistic- . the midrange is more up front and dominant but with my new drivers there is a very pleasing clarity and tonality that I did not have before. again, a realism. the image and time alignment are not perfect but so far a little better than my best efforts.
now for the bizarre part- the crossovers and slopes. lets just say that i (nor likely anyone else) would have ever picked some of these crossover points. it plays my HAT midbass all the way to 8Khz and crosses my L3SE midrange at 8K as well- but with a shallow 12db slope. very bizarre. it crossed my sub at 63Hz but with a very shallow 12 db slope.
I played a variety of music and every song sounded good, some very good, and i will continue running this way for a while.
I sure hope i am through ghucking around with it for a while.
 

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I remember the days when I have the Dyn 100/140/2/160GT setup in my old car, my xo was 63/1600/8000. I now drop the 140/2 due to space, run auto, still 63/8000...

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Autotune does nothing that you can't do yourself. Pioneer tech support said that two years ago when I asked that very same question. My conclusion is that both auto TA and EQ suck in 4-way mode. The EQ was horrible in my car. It EQed the crap out of my mids and everything sounded muddy. Some had luck with it, others didn't. Personally, I haven't heard any auto function that manages to EQ right so far. Alpines imprint was good at TA but the EQ was horrible there too.

EQ from measurements are quite easy nowadays. Doesn't take more than a hour or so with a dual 31b GEQ. Apps like RoomEQ makes it user friendly and quick to measure and interpret the data.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
 

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Update 11/17/12

After owning the DEX for 9 months I did something with it today that I had never done before- ran an autotune with automatic network. Why did I do it? Well here are some answers-

1) After 9 months I am still adjusting everything on the fly- tonality, levels, crossovers, time alignment, etc. and I am tired of it. I have a very nice sounding tune and stage- but it does not work for all music- and when I adjust for one (e.g. a bass heavy recordig) everything else sounds poor and vice versa. I want to run the DEX version of a nice tune and commit to it for a while. I am hoping for a nice sweet spot.
2) I read somewhere that the auto network autotune can actually sound better than a custom network tune. Since I had done many custom network autotones and was never happy, i decided to give the auto network autotune a try.
3) Since first installing it last February, I have upgraded every driver in my car to the point where I am satisfied with their quality- and have upgraded the door sealing and deadening as well.
4) I have a hunch that the autotune can generate a more refined EQ than the 31 band graphic can- that it may be continuously variable for for frequency and Q- such that it may smooth out some bass "valleys" in my RTA plots as well as eliminate the touchy midbass resonance I experience from time to time.
5) I just felt like it.

So how are the results? In a word bizarre but very pleasing. I definitely got rid of the midbass resonance issue. The bass is less powerful but the tones sound like tones- very realistic- . the midrange is more up front and dominant but with my new drivers there is a very pleasing clarity and tonality that I did not have before. again, a realism. the image and time alignment are not perfect but so far a little better than my best efforts.
now for the bizarre part- the crossovers and slopes. lets just say that i (nor likely anyone else) would have ever picked some of these crossover points. it plays my HAT midbass all the way to 8Khz and crosses my L3SE midrange at 8K as well- but with a shallow 12db slope. very bizarre. it crossed my sub at 63Hz but with a very shallow 12 db slope.
I played a variety of music and every song sounded good, some very good, and i will continue running this way for a while.
I sure hope i am through ghucking around with it for a while.
I don't know about your system buy mine sounds like a concert hall on wheels. It's not the deck, I have the same one. But I also have a $20,000 set up. This deck is as good as my F1 status I had although not quality wise but sounds just as good.
 

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Discussion Starter #166
Autotune does nothing that you can't do yourself. Pioneer tech support said that two years ago when I asked that very same question. My conclusion is that both auto TA and EQ suck in 4-way mode. The EQ was horrible in my car. It EQed the crap out of my mids and everything sounded muddy. Some had luck with it, others didn't. Personally, I haven't heard any auto function that manages to EQ right so far. Alpines imprint was good at TA but the EQ was horrible there too.

EQ from measurements are quite easy nowadays. Doesn't take more than a hour or so with a dual 31b GEQ. Apps like RoomEQ makes it user friendly and quick to measure and interpret the data.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
I don't disagree with you but for some reason (for me) the RTA does not tell a very complete picture with respect to sound quality. In other words the sound can be very different yet the RTA 6 position averages will only reveal slight changes to the curve depending on EQ settings. I can manhandle certain bands of the EQ and sometimes it does not even show up on the RTA for some reason yet the sound you hear is much different.
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The autotune I ran was not acceptable because my rear passives (on the low channel) were interpreted to be the woofers and band passed them from 63 Hz to 1600 Hz. My front midbass drivers were interpreted to be the midrange, so my front speakers were only playing from 1600 Hz and up! HOWEVER, there was something very different and pleasing about the sound. The vocals and midrange came forward and up in the mix. they were too buried before.
So I measured the response with an RTA (very flat BTW with a gradual downward trend through the octaves). Then I revised the crossovers to something more approproiate for my setup, adjusted levels to get close to the curve, then did some additional EQ cuts and now I have somewhat mimicked the autotune curve but with all speakers playing their appropriate frequency ranges. After one CD i am encouraged by the results. The midrange vocal clarity is improved tremendously. The T/A image is also very good. Bass may be a little thin- but this is a new shift for my preferences and a reset in sound quality. We'll see how it goes.
 

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I don't disagree with you but for some reason (for me) the RTA does not tell a very complete picture with respect to sound quality. In other words the sound can be very different yet the RTA 6 position averages will only reveal slight changes to the curve depending on EQ settings. I can manhandle certain bands of the EQ and sometimes it does not even show up on the RTA for some reason yet the sound you hear is much different.
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The autotune I ran was not acceptable because my rear passives (on the low channel) were interpreted to be the woofers and band passed them from 63 Hz to 1600 Hz. My front midbass drivers were interpreted to be the midrange, so my front speakers were only playing from 1600 Hz and up! HOWEVER, there was something very different and pleasing about the sound. The vocals and midrange came forward and up in the mix. they were too buried before.
So I measured the response with an RTA (very flat BTW with a gradual downward trend through the octaves). Then I revised the crossovers to something more approproiate for my setup, adjusted levels to get close to the curve, then did some additional EQ cuts and now I have somewhat mimicked the autotune curve but with all speakers playing their appropriate frequency ranges. After one CD i am encouraged by the results. The midrange vocal clarity is improved tremendously. The T/A image is also very good. Bass may be a little thin- but this is a new shift for my preferences and a reset in sound quality. We'll see how it goes.
The autotune does not average anything at the listening position. It's pretty inaccurate in setting a equal EQ left-right.

63/1600/8000 is a standard crossover setting in the P99. The drivers should be used in their optimal reproduction range. It's individual to each driver, placement and listening angle. Vocal clarity... if you're talking about female vocals, you have a problem with the upper midrange. I'm guessing here, but did you cross around 2,5-4kHz before? If you did then you could have some driver out of phase, RTA might not register that as a dip but rather as ripple when measuring. It's not rocket science, either the issue is in the time domain or frequency domain. Eliminate frequency issues with measurements and you know what to address.

I can re-set my DSP settings 10 times but I always end up with a similar result since I'm following the same procedure every time. This how I did it on the P99, works every time ;)

1. Set crossovers based on frequency response at the target location. Measure each driver separately fullrange, (not the tweeter though) and see how they perform. Frequency domain is most important, but you can measure HD as well with aRTA for example to get the most of your drivers)

2. Set polarity between drivers (0/180 phase inv) Easy to hear what sounds best, possible to measure as well with the initial peak in impulse response, which is what auto tune does btw.

3. Set T/A

4. Set L-R EQ (Keep within 1dB if much as possible above 1,5kHz), below 1kHz it's not that critical since we're in ITD domain now.

With individual EQ DSPs (EQ on each driver) I use to EQ first off instead. Takes about a hour or so, you're using the AUX input on the front panel via a laptop right? Much better than using a CD with PN.
 

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Discussion Starter #168
Hanatsu, thanks for the info. Comments and questions below-

Quote- "The autotune does not average anything at the listening position. It's pretty inaccurate in setting a equal EQ left-right"

Agreed. My comments meant that for me it is difficult to fine tune a correlation between an RTA plot and actual sound perceived by the ear. I measure with the 6-position average method. I can make drastic changes in the EQ, driver levels and crossovers and it will greatly affect how it sounds to the ear- but shows up as minor deviations on an RTA curve.

Quote- "63/1600/8000 is a standard crossover setting in the P99. The drivers should be used in their optimal reproduction range. It's individual to each driver, placement and listening angle. Vocal clarity... if you're talking about female vocals, you have a problem with the upper midrange. I'm guessing here, but did you cross around 2,5-4kHz before? If you did then you could have some driver out of phase, RTA might not register that as a dip but rather as ripple when measuring. It's not rocket science, either the issue is in the time domain or frequency domain. Eliminate frequency issues with measurements and you know what to address."

Thank goodness it isn't rocket science because the last rocket i designed wound up in the lake.
Why does the P99 pick 12db slopes across the board? Something about this sounds good. For some reason, the slope picked for the sub and midbass has a keen effect on the midrange and high frequencies too- I don't understand it. In other words the current 12db slope (sub crossed at 63, midbass crossed at 80) sounds very good overall- but when I switch to 80 / 80 each at 36db, the bass improves and tightens up- but the midrange and high frequencies are also impacted somehow- they do not sound as good. I don't get it.

The other topic is the crossover point between midbass and midrange. If you have good drivers, you can pick a crossover point somewhere between 200 Hz and 6000 Hz for example. this becomes the dividing frequency of the door mounted system- above this frequency the upper door drivers take over, below it and the lower door midbass takes over. It seems like this decision needs to be made carefully and that there is more in play other than the driver's optimal reproduction range.
My previous crossover point was 800Hz 12/18 db. I seemed to have lots of issues with reflections and image shifting with the upper door drivers playing 800Hz and up.
I currently have it set to 5000Hz, tweeter crossed at 8Khz. 5000 Hz may seem like a waste of a midrange driver but it seems to sound better this way for some reason that I do not fully understand. Picking the right "dividing" frequency for lower and upper door drivers seems to be very critical.

Quote- "I can re-set my DSP settings 10 times but I always end up with a similar result since I'm following the same procedure every time. This how I did it on the P99, works every time

1. Set crossovers based on frequency response at the target location. Measure each driver separately fullrange, (not the tweeter though) and see how they perform. Frequency domain is most important, but you can measure HD as well with aRTA for example to get the most of your drivers)

2. Set polarity between drivers (0/180 phase inv) Easy to hear what sounds best, possible to measure as well with the initial peak in impulse response, which is what auto tune does btw.

3. Set T/A

4. Set L-R EQ (Keep within 1dB if much as possible above 1,5kHz), below 1kHz it's not that critical since we're in ITD domain now.

With individual EQ DSPs (EQ on each driver) I use to EQ first off instead. Takes about a hour or so, you're using the AUX input on the front panel via a laptop right? Much better than using a CD with PN."

It sounds like you have developed a nice system to achieve a tune that you like. When you measure each driver individually at the listening position, I assume you are looking to determine the range with the flattest response and set crossovers accordingly.
I'm guessing if you do this, you could have different crossovers for the right and left side drivers?
Polarity is something I just leave alone- unless it's for a distant driver like the subwoofer.
L-R EQ I have had some success with and I plan on refining the image with this step.
Are you talking about the pink noise generator in the RTA software? Why is this better than a pink noise CD?

Interesting discussion, thanks.
 

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I never use steeper slopes than 24dB/oct fyi. The reason it sounds different is that there are less interaction between the drivers with a 36dB slope. You pulling energy away faster from the driver below/above the crossover point. With 12dB slopes you'll have a 180deg phase shift at xover, which creates a major dip in frequency response if left uncorrected. 12 and 24dB slopes are good cause they are easy to correct for and integrate right.
Steeper slopes than 24dB is pretty meaningless imo.

I use different crossovers each side. As long as you attain equal amplitude each side, it's a good way to perform some "pre-eq".

If some drivers are out of phase it will affect a large part of the staging (midrange). Might not show up on a RTA. I suggest to play around with polarity as well. My midranges are phase inverted vs the other drivers, sounded best in my system. Do it before TA.
 

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And pink noise is not always the same. There are mono/stereo types. Uncorrelated/correlated noise. Try the aux input and do a MLS sweep in aRTA. Do the result look the same as the RTA?

By simulating the auto EQ method you can gain some understanding how it measures compared to the averaged RTA.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.
 

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New guy here. Want to know if you can use this deck in a 2-way and sub Active set up?
Yep! Just go into the menu section and turn off the high outputs and use the mid output for your tweeters.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2
 

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I hope my installer either finishes my door-pod project Saturday or next Wednesday so I have my speakers back and then I can go 3-way and active. Then I'll have to diddle the tuning for the next 9999years.
 

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Has anyone figured out at what volume the p99rs clips at. I think I can start to hear some distortion around 57. Right now I usually run the deck at 51 or so.
 

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The P99RS does not clip.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2
 

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Has anyone figured out at what volume the p99rs clips at. I think I can start to hear some distortion around 57. Right now I usually run the deck at 51 or so.
Also, I can't get my volume past 35 unless I stand outside the car. Sound pressure level is too much past that.
 
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