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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Post up your tuning tricks that made a big difference....


here’s a few of mine for a 2ch Dirac tune with a multi way

1. If one channel seems louder then the other , your mic is simply too close or not close enough to the left side driver. (Left hand drive) If it’s too much to the right get your forward measurement points a little farther from the left speaker (you’ll know which measurement point is the offender based on your speaker locations i.e. dah or door etc high or low measurement. That should fix it it’s most likely the forward left measurement points that’s causing any volume issues to one side or other

2. if using more then one set of midbas mute one set during DLC and let Dirac only tune to one set. I have kicks and door midbass , I only use the kick location during measurements.... it sounds much better and I get a better tune

3. try a flat response.

4. tune without sub on, turn sub off and do manual peq rta TA to sub after Dirac is done. Everyone is about this “house curve thing” and I surly love a fat midbass..... but hear me on this. Especially if running two sets of midbass.(I’ll explain in a sec) .. do a ruler flat response from 120hz to 3khz then a small 1db per octave tilt down after that. If your midbass have tilt to them you could be missing out on the low midbass that blends with sub and the 150hz range can be boomy. If you run two sets of midbass , tune with one set on, draw a flat response from 120hz to 3khz then to taste Tilt, (maybe a small bump at 10k if have a 3db or more tilt) then look at the magnitude shape of measurement. Draw your target to follow that shape to -6db and match it to your crossover. If your don’t have response to your crossover then don’t do this trick. If you have response to 80 or 70 in the magnitude you could go flat all the way down and it will sound kick ass! But speakers could bottom out if a lot of power is used... so flat to 120 or wherever your magnitude starts to drop. Follow that shape or shape of crossover to -6db. Make sure you don’t go past the 10db Dirac zone

for multiple midbass users add the 2nd set after Dirac and let that be your tilt from crossover to about 300-400hz set your crossover no higher then 400 for this as it will speak too much....
That is how to get a good sounding tilt with Dirac and multiple midbass... why? The two sets of midbass no matter how good your time alignment is at different measurement points they will have radically different responses and make your midbass net boomy and lack depth.... you’ll have to tilt them up a lot to get good response and it won’t be punchy. Just use 1set for tuning then add the second set after and manually add it and work with what was given by Dirac correction for the 1st set.... hands down better way to do this



5. do a flat response (all the way flat) **** it sounds a lot better. Especially vocals

6. use quadratic crossovers!!! This one is huge! Ditch them LR alignments for god sakes..... do your LF sub and midbass to midrange with BWs (6 or 18 or 36) them sum to 0db and highly reflective environments like this..... serious as ****. Flat magnitude is much much much more preferable in a car.... and with Dirac it will make the sum flat even if your crossover is tuned wrong.... so LR “alignments” (which are almost always misaligned in a car) don’t make as much sense to use with Dirac , the LR should be used for HF but even then you don’t need it..... the HF crossing the LR will work fine and still be mostly preferred.
 

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What midbass do you run and how are the band passed?

I will have 4 Dayton ND140-8's in each door then another 4 under each seat, basically 2 10's per side in terms of cone area. Only plan to run them up to 250-300hz and down to 60hz at the lowest. Should give me the sensitivity and power handling of a pro audio driver but dig very deep.

Been curious how Dirac will tune them. Going to tune without it first, haven't purchased Dirac yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What midbass do you run and how are the band passed?

I will have 4 Dayton ND140-8's in each door then another 4 under each seat, basically 2 10's per side in terms of cone area. Only plan to run them up to 250-300hz and down to 60hz at the lowest. Should give me the sensitivity and power handling of a pro audio driver but dig very deep.

Been curious how Dirac will tune them. Going to tune without it first, haven't purchased Dirac yet.

So your midbass will need horns or something very hi efficient to be able to use all that midbass ..... but this is what I would do

Take your farthest forward set and use only those to go with rest of system ????

Wait ...... what’s the rest of system , power etc ?
 

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Thanks so much for posting this. I have been frustrated with the sound in my car. Midbass keeps coming out very weak with every run I’ve done. My sub/midbass pairing isn’t the best but I expected a better than what I am getting right now. Just last night, I thought about trying running Dirac without the sub just to try something different and I see that this one of your tricks. Will give that a go and see what happens.

I agree with ditching LR alignment for the speakers you've mentioned.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So like I said in first post , for some reason with a 2ch tune that blends midbass to midrange, one set of midbass..... the timing differences in the other midbass could freak out the measurement and cause tonality issues. Also could make midbass not be sharp

One single speaker will keep up just fine with an adjacent midrange as far as response goes to make it flat ,

Once that’s done start adding the rest of midbass to the finished tune , they will all share the tune that one midbass made. So the correction should be mostly valid , your under seat ones I would run as subs and cross those with your sub and maybe play them to 150hz and let them play all the way down.... my bet is they don’t add properly and will screw up the stage and not make anything better except maybe one narrow band, and it won’t be worth it


I would make those subs , maybe make all of them play as subs except the 1st one measured.... I would try it a few ways honestly , amd learn the room amd behavior of everything.... but to start.... do a single midbass for Dirac.... make it flat and start adding them, that will create a nice tilt

You want the response flat from 400-3k minimum, I prefer flat to about 5k but to each there own

Good luck let us know how it goes
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
With sub playing and everything on the sound quality is still great, but it’s playing with sums of everything a bit too much for me...... the sum sq is fantastic but there’s little transparency and punch in midbass.
The sub sometimes sounds like it’s playing into the 100s of hertz and it does something weird.... again, not paying attention to the behavior and just listening to the sum of everything it’s great! But doing it this way should bet in some cars a better result...

If your sub is up front..... keep it in the mix ..... I would bet it sounds better..... and if your doors can play flat to 50hz flat, **** go for it , i would play flat to as far down as I can go before the response starts to fall off.....

In my pic above my response starts to fall at 120hz , even tho there’s so much more response above the mid , that’s a mind trick.... when response starts to fall it won’t like lots of power below that..... go as far down as can before your speakers bottom out at high power.... may take a few adjustments in the target to get it to go loud .....

If your using 75wch or less amps at 4ohms just play it flat to 80. That’s not enough power to bottom out a speaker
 

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Current plan. Like to think in octaves when planning a system. 1 watt sensitivities.
Bliesma T25A-6 (90db) LPF at 2240hz
Zaph ZA14W08 (87db) BPF from 280-2240hz
Dayton ND140-8 x8 per side (91-93db) BPF from 70-280hz
Dayton RSS390HF-4 (91db) x2 in IB LPF at 52.5hz (using Andy's .5 octave rule)
(Thinking of picking up a pair of Ultimax 18's instead)
Dayton RS100P-4 for rear fill

Per side. Will be dialed back 5db in the DSP so really more like 1/3 of those numbers.

US Acoustics Lisa on tweeters (37.5 watts) and rear fill (50 watts)
Arc CXLR 4150 bridged on mids (200 watts)
NVX VADM4 x2 1 channel per 2 midbass (440 watts)
JBL MS5001 on the subs (800ish watts)

Going over kill on the midbass for the high sensitivity and to help keep it effortless/low excursion. Don't expect to get close to using all the power I have on tap. Since the ~300hz region tends to have the highest average SPL in music along with the upwards slope of a typical house curve starting around 200hz I wanted to design a very potent midbass set up. The sub bass gets the benefit of cabin gain.

Own all of that except I'm 4 short of the ND140-8, I only have 12 right now...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Put more power on them tweets.... first and foremost.... it will sound just fine as it , but them tweets will be the limiting factor for volume on the system....

You already have it planned and bought stuff then do the instal.... I have always (always) believed you want to use the same amps and power on every single speaker in the system for the fronts. And use a minimum of 100wch at 4ohms

What’s going to happen if your going to eq down the sensitivity on that tweeter. It’s going to have a big peak somewhere. There goes the efficiency.

Many will argue with me on this, as if turning the system on makes no sound...
of course it will work and sound good..... it’s absurd to think differently. Otoh if one was to heed this and do it one would immediately notice a massive improvement in dynamics and overall volume...

I pay little attention to sensitivity as far as power requirements goes.... I pay lots of attention to sensitivity as far as matching speakers to each other.

If you look at my response in my pic your looking at , dynaudio mw172s , stevens SA6 components. The stevens are 91db and the 172s are less then 87 iirc.... all speakers have there own channel off matching alpine XA70F amps ( I have 3, 4ch amps) so I have 120wrms on each speaker, all amp gains are at “nom” the middle, and all outputs on DSP are at 0db. I’m not using any driver eq in the inband of any driver, so according to that logic my kids and tweets should be about 5db above the dyns..... not so. The 72s are way above the stevens.....there’s a plethora of reasons. My point being. Equal power is a must for a loud system.

Once you eq down the peaks it’s like turning the gain down..... my midbass “could” be turned down before Dirac.... but then they won’t get the proper power to match up to the stevens..... even tho response shows the opposite
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
270hz is a good crossover that 5” will surly play down, you might try using a BW12 or self defined 2nd order with a Q..707.... I would use real time rta and watch the response at all the Dirac measurement points on each driver playing full range PN with no crossover, where ever there is a big dip in response on all the locations on either mid or midbass, you might do a 100hz overlap on the crossover just for that side.... or move the crossover to the driver that doesn’t have the dip....

Using overlap on that side will allow that 5” to play low and allow the midbass to cover the hole....

Example , if the 5” has a big dip at 315 you could let the midbass play to 375 and the midrange play to 275 so you still get energy from the midrange down low to keep the stage symmetry, and this will surly almost always be only on the left side.....

You are on axis and PLDs verweb same side drivers are minimized for the right ch.
so the left is most likely where your going to have to experiment...

Btw love the Zapfs those sound killer
 

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4. tune without sub on, turn sub off and do manual peq rta TA to sub after Dirac is done. Everyone is about this “house curve thing” and I surly love a fat midbass..... but hear me on this. Especially if running two sets of midbass.(I’ll explain in a sec) .. do a ruler flat response from 120hz to 3khz then a small 1db per octave tilt down after that. If your midbass have tilt to them you could be missing out on the low midbass that blends with sub and the 150hz range can be boomy. If you run two sets of midbass , tune with one set on, draw a flat response from 120hz to 3khz then to taste Tilt, (maybe a small bump at 10k if have a 3db or more tilt) then look at the magnitude shape of measurement. Draw your target to follow that shape to -6db and match it to your crossover. If your don’t have response to your crossover then don’t do this trick. If you have response to 80 or 70 in the magnitude you could go flat all the way down and it will sound kick ass! But speakers could bottom out if a lot of power is used... so flat to 120 or wherever your magnitude starts to drop. Follow that shape or shape of crossover to -6db. Make sure you don’t go past the 10db Dirac zone
When tuning using the above approach, when you are introducing the sub back into the system, are you running that on a third Dirac channel? Or summing Dirac 1 and Dirac 2?

I'm asking because, when I run Dirac on my 2 channels, it ends up putting a slight delay on one of the channels. So, if I sum Dirac 1 and Dirac 2 for the sub, I would expect to sound a bit...funny.

Thanks in advance!
 

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6. use quadratic crossovers!!! This one is huge! Ditch them LR alignments for god sakes..... do your LF sub and midbass to midrange with BWs (6 or 18 or 36) them sum to 0db and highly reflective environments like this..... serious as ****. Flat magnitude is much much much more preferable in a car.... and with Dirac it will make the sum flat even if your crossover is tuned wrong.... so LR “alignments” (which are almost always misaligned in a car) don’t make as much sense to use with Dirac , the LR should be used for HF but even then you don’t need it..... the HF crossing the LR will work fine and still be mostly preferred.
Could you elaborate on this a bit? I've been using LR24 throughout, and just added SI M3 mids, but something isn't quite right - in some ways the tune (such as it is, I'm a novice) sounds better with DL turned off.
 

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Specifically, diminished punch in bass & crack of snare drum, "congested" upper mids, less sharp center image. Sounds good, but should be better.
 

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Specifically, diminished punch in bass & crack of snare drum, "congested" upper mids, less sharp center image. Sounds good, but should be better.
You’re basically describing how my system sounds.
 

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You’re basically describing how my system sounds.
I suppose it's encouraging that neither of us is the only one experiencing this. I'm going to play around using BW. I'm not sure exactly what oabeieo is suggesting - seems like BW for sub, midbass, maybe midranges, & LR for tweeters?
 

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I suppose it's encouraging that neither of us is the only one experiencing this. I'm going to play around using BW. I'm not sure exactly what oabeieo is suggesting - seems like BW for sub, midbass, maybe midranges, & LR for tweeters?
Right. Use BW (6, 18 or 36dB) definitely for sub and midbass. Should go with the same for higher freqs but can use LR.

I think my problem is also due to my sub being possibly underpowered. I hate to do another amp swap but it just might be unavoidable. I am kicking myself in the butt right now for selling my MMATS amp awhile back.

Also, I just don’t think class D for the front stage is doing it for me. I still have my old Eclipse amp sitting around. I am thinking about swapping that amp back in but going hold off while I play around with Dirac so more.
 

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Right. Use BW (6, 18 or 36dB) definitely for sub and midbass. Should go with the same for higher freqs but can use LR.

I think my problem is also due to my sub being possibly underpowered. I hate to do another amp swap but it just might be unavoidable. I am kicking myself in the butt right now for selling my MMATS amp awhile back.

Also, I just don’t think class D for the front stage is doing it for me. I still have my old Eclipse amp sitting around. I am thinking about swapping that amp back in but going hold off while I play around with Dirac so more.
Thanks. Is there a reason to use 6, 18, or 36db vs 12 or 12db Butterworth?
 

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I’m not sure. Mine is set to BW 18dB for all. I have played around with other settings including LR24. 18dB seems to sound best.

Btw, I started from scratch again. Did another set of Dirac runs. First, one measurement to just get T/A and levels so that I can enter those numbers in the output tabs on the minidsp. Then ran the full set Dirac measurements as required. This time, I went back to including the sub rather than leaving it out as the OP had suggested. But I set my target curve to flat as he recommended at 0db. In the past, I would leave it with that downward slope.
System sounds so much better. Whew!
 

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I’m not sure. Mine is set to BW 18dB for all. I have played around with other settings including LR24. 18dB seems to sound best.

Btw, I started from scratch again. Did another set of Dirac runs. First, one measurement to just get T/A and levels so that I can enter those numbers in the output tabs on the minidsp. Then ran the full set Dirac measurements as required. This time, I went back to including the sub rather than leaving it out as the OP had suggested. But I set my target curve to flat as he recommended at 0db. In the past, I would leave it with that downward slope.
System sounds so much better. Whew!
That's good to hear! Did you just run this through today?
 

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