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I am currently running the Hertz Mille Series 6.5 components, and the Hertz MPX 6x9's with a JL Audio XD 600. For subs, I have 2 JL 12W7's each running with their own JL Slash 1000/1 amp (still finishing the new box build and install had to refoam 1 sub). My head unit is the Pioneer NEX 8200. This is in a Camaro 2011. I feel like the NEX 8200 has a lot of audio capabilities, but not sure if adding a DSP to the system is truly needed, to be honest I don't know a lot about DSP's. However I was considering the Audio Control DM 608? Thanks in advance for your input!
 

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Do you need it? No.

But will you Benefit from learning about one? Yes.

The real question is, do you notice a need for one? My Spidy sense says no. Reason being is that it does not seem like you have any complaints. If you don't know any better, then ignorance is bliss.

Your Head unit may have all that you feel that you need. And that's fine. Less things in the Audio chain is always a good rule of thumb.


My honest advice to you is that you should first finish the install with the gear you have and tune it the way you want it to sound. If that does not work, and you have hit the limits of your STOCK Deck, then the route to the Audio control DSP is the way to go.

Mark has a Great Beginner Primer.


I wonder if people in Mclaren Owners need them. Hmm.
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Here is a another Video on a more accessible DSP.



Here is a Home Audio Primer on how its used in a Home or Studio environment.

Car Audio Focused. From VLAD the MAN! (Peter) After you watch this series, you will be a Master on DSP.


This goes REALLY into why that Audiocontrol is going to be so worth it.



Again, if you don't know if your missing anything? Be thankful. The Audio Bug is never ending.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
imickey, thanks for the info, I have been up all night trying to do research. I love music, and probably have spent more money then I needed to on my system, some of it has been rebuilt or refurbished, but no I have no idea how to properly tune a system, or set the eq, I have watched tons of videos, and read several posts, but to be honest non of it makes sense. At the end of the day, I do want great sound quality, until recently I was running just 1 sub, the new box and 2nd sub was all part of that great deal for used pieces and yes the audio bug. From what I can tell, the DSP would simply the EQ settings and make it sound great, but no sure if there is a cheaper better way to do so. The Pioneer NEX head unit is amazing, but I don't know the first thing about setting it, after readying tonight, I've probably had the eq settings to high, but then I thought it sounded good. Thanks again!
 

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Dude. Trust me on this. Use your ears. I'm a no bullshit kind of person so pardon me for saying this.

STOP GIVING A FUCK ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAY YOU NEED.


Most of them have no idea. The rest don't have your ears. :)

Keep it simple.

If you want to do it for fun? Or by the book of what it should BE/ what is the Reference? There is an easy way.

Before you do or buy anything? GO to a Sound meet up like ISSCA or one of the others and hear a reference grade system. Bring Beer and tacos. Or Toilet paper to give away! :cool: Starbucks Gift cards are pretty cool!

Then go to your car and listen. See if you are missing out. If not? YOUR GOLDEN! Thank the GODS and your life is PEACHY! SPEND NO MORE MONEY! ITS A TRAP! LOL.

TRAP..
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TRAP...
-----------------------_TRAP-------------TRAP---------------TRAP-----------------


Missing Something? Well, here is where it ALL gets expensive and Labor Intensive. You can have 3 things.
A Fast car. A Reliable car. Or Cheap car Pick 2..Unless you stole it. :)

Type in Google BBphoto Test files. (I made sure to rank him #1) it will show up with a thread here on DIYMA


Pick up a Pair of these:
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Get your phone out or Laptop. Make sure to set it up to flat with e.q flat at first. If your Phone has some Dolby audio enchantments, see if you can tell the difference between the settings and click through them. See if you can tune your ear to what you want to hear. And make sure to toggle between flat and your settings. Use the custom part to get the most control if you have the Dolby audio app on your phone if android. If not. No worries move on.

Its all about training your ear at this point.

Listen to these tracks he posted of what it sounds like in his car. Also there are other test tracks he has.


Grab all of it! Listen to them on these headphones, then a pair of ear buds, (I recommend Samsung as they are cheap and cheerful) Also in your Home audio. This is to get your ear trained.
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Get a headphone spliter.
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If you have access to the 3.5 input on your deck? Cool. If not you can use Bluetooth, but this method works best for a/b Comparisons.

Get this as well.
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Go to your car. (with your EARS FRESH not Blown out. Early in the morning is best. Or afternoon. Make sure the Wax in your ears is clean as well. I use to do work at an Ear Clinic. AMAZING how much WAX people have.
Wax is for your cars. NOT YOUR EARS!

Sit in the drivers seat.
Hook up the Panasonic headphones put them on, and then run the other cable to the Pioneer you have. TURN THE VOLUME TO ZERO ON THE PIONEER.

Set the phone you are listening to the tracks on to a comfortable volume on the headphones. Listen to a track you like. Use one of the test tracks you like. Or are familiar with.

Now, While the track is playing turn up the volume on the Pioneer so you just hear it.

Now take off the earphones. listen to the difference. Now, set your Headunit to only play from the RIGHT FRONT CHANNEL ONLY. You should turn off your sub-woofer for this at first.

Now take off the right ear cup from the headphones.

Now, take off the left one and put the right one back on the right ear with only the right channel playing and compare. try to match the volume on the headphones with the Pioneer volume knob.

If there are problems? The first thing you can do is use the auto setup (if you have not done that already) with the microphone.

Here:

Now if you have done that, then go ahead and compare to what you hear from the headphones to your tune. What tune do you like better (with sub woofer on)

If its not right, this is where you go into the E.Q and DSP settings. You should get that Phantom center image where you are sitting. If not, then you need to manually adjust your time alignment settings on the DSP menu on your deck. If they sound like the headphones or damn near close, you are good, There are settings for the manual time delay. You can also turn down your rear speakers if this helps. Or Unplug them.

When you get that far? Now you can adjust the E.Q. So it sounds like it does in the headphones as best as you can.
If that does not work? Then you have 3 options.

1. Speakers need to be in better places, or better speakers.
2. Go Fully active. (Can be done from the head unit with network mode)
3. Use REW or other tools to see where the problems are, and try to use what tools you have on your DSP in your deck to fix them.
4. Get better speakers. / better install through acoustic treatments.
5. Spring for the Audio-control DSP and get a UMIK Microphone. Laptop and an O scope or DD-1.
6. see a Pro installer.


Most of the time you won't need to buy a DSP. Your Deck should be good enough. Most people actually prefer not having accurate Reference grade sound. TO most it sounds dry. Lifeless etc. If you like it? Then don't worry about it.


Hell. We don't buy BIG subs just for kicks. Chances are? You like that strong Bass Thump. Hell with it. GO with what you like. Just get the system to sound the way YOU WANT. To hell with what everyone else thinks. But that's just me. The rest is Just Hobby.

I spent a LOT of time at a Radio Station in the Mixing Booth with one of the BEST Audio Mixers in the world. The guy was a WIZARD MAN. He helped me train my ear. Let me tell you. I HAVE NO LOVE for ACCURATE SOUND. But I do know when I hear ANY KIND OF DISTORTION. And I can tell the diff from Panasonic DAT machines and a Reel to Reel all pure analogue chain. Even how some tubes sound different in pre-amps etc. .

The Most important part was ALWAYS THE ROOM. The same music sounds like crap in one room but the same speakers in another room sounded great. (Not amazing) but better.

So just go with what your ear likes.

Music is like taste in women. Sometimes you want Handfuls. Sometimes you want a steam boat. Up to you.

Just enjoy the music and the Hobby. Its all about you. Never forget that.
 

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Do I need a DSP?
Yes.

But only if you have someone around you who is competent in the installation and tuning of the DSP.
 

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Yes.

But only if you have someone around you who is competent in the installation and tuning of the DSP.
So for someone with no dsp experience you'd recommend a passive setup? Most shops don't seem to do very well with tuning from what I've seen. Unless you get lucky
 

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So for someone with no dsp experience you'd recommend a passive setup? Most shops don't seem to do very well with tuning from what I've seen. Unless you get lucky
If you are unable or unwilling to learn how to tune it yourself, passive might be the best bet. However, the crossovers are only one small part of tuning with a DSP. And even installations using passive crossovers can benefit from proper implementation of digital signal processing.

I'm currently working with a guy to piece together a very simple, low budget system in a classic truck. The system will consist of a single DIN head unit, a pair of 6.5" coaxes, an 8" subwoofer and a 4 channel amp. About as simple as it gets. Still, I chose for him to go with the head unit with the most flexible built-in DSP to give myself the best chance of tuning/optimizing his installation. The $120 head unit has time alignment, crossovers, independent channel level control, paragraphic EQ and L/R high and mono low shelf filters.
 

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If you are unable or unwilling to learn how to tune it yourself, passive might be the best bet. However, the crossovers are only one small part of tuning with a DSP. And even installations using passive crossovers can benefit from proper implementation of digital signal processing.

I'm currently working with a guy to piece together a very simple, low budget system in a classic truck. The system will consist of a single DIN head unit, a pair of 6.5" coaxes, an 8" subwoofer and a 4 channel amp. About as simple as it gets. Still, I chose for him to go with the head unit with the most flexible built-in DSP to give myself the best chance of tuning/optimizing his installation. The $120 head unit has time alignment, crossovers, independent channel level control, paragraphic EQ and L/R high and mono low shelf filters.
What HU is that?
 

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If you are unable or unwilling to learn how to tune it yourself, passive might be the best bet. However, the crossovers are only one small part of tuning with a DSP. And even installations using passive crossovers can benefit from proper implementation of digital signal processing.

I'm currently working with a guy to piece together a very simple, low budget system in a classic truck. The system will consist of a single DIN head unit, a pair of 6.5" coaxes, an 8" subwoofer and a 4 channel amp. About as simple as it gets. Still, I chose for him to go with the head unit with the most flexible built-in DSP to give myself the best chance of tuning/optimizing his installation. The $120 head unit has time alignment, crossovers, independent channel level control, paragraphic EQ and L/R high and mono low shelf filters.
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So Care to tell us about your new build out?
Promise. I won't steal and copy what you are doing. Sell it to China, and make Millions! :)


So for someone with no dsp experience you'd recommend a passive setup? Most shops don't seem to do very well with tuning from what I've seen. Unless you get lucky

This is why I miss having Kids work at Car Audio shops. They have the time. And they just find it cool. Doing a good job tuning takes LOTS of time. Sometimes a whole day just to work on ONE CAR. That does not include the install. But lets be honest. Money and time is not free. The Better installers out there are in HIGH demand. And the people who are willing to pay for it are in LOW demand.

People want it. But its not like doing Air Conditioning in cars. People notice right away what they are getting like a sub woofer install. And lets be real here. How many people really have at least $45 bucks an hour to spend on Labor or more? And if the Customer brings in some other gear? Dude, you could be at it for DAYS!


How many of us have spend Months to get our system right or YEARS! :) But like everything. Some things are just flatly for the few. Not everyone will appreciate the work you do. And most people just want to spend a Bit of Money, and TIME and go right out the door. And the Industry has done a HORRIBLE job being honest about all of it.

Audio is simply a Luxury item. For most its nothing but a Pair of socks. For some it is the reason why we get up in the morning and roll out of bed or have a smile on our face.

Most people simply don't have the awareness of any of it. Apathy & the lack of caring is a Big part. But the SNOBBERY! Combine that with the Snake Oil? People just tune out. And instead of making it Plug and play like most End Consumers want? Well. That's a pipe dream for Obvious technical and Practical reasons.


The ONE thing that Home Theater DID right was to make everything STANDARD. (mostly) Plug and Play, and EASY. Everyone wants the best. But the way they do it in home theater allows people to build up to what they want. And they have a whole Industry that markets to them what they want. And at a great price. Its easy to do for anyone, and it is Truly Buy a Box, open it. Hook up the few cables, or Power, and download an app and you are off running.

That for practical reasons can not happen in car audio. And due to that? Only a few people get to enjoy a Plug and play solution (BMW Owners for example) that fits 99% of the end users needs. What works for Bavaria Sound For example won't work with the guy in his Pick Up Truck etc. And it does not help that the Auto Companies don't make it any easier to do. (for the most part)

Try telling your Guidance counselor that you want to do Car Audio or work in Audio? They will send you to a Radio Station. Not Phoenix Gold down the street.

It also does not help that we Fired all the Music Teachers who gave a damn. Most were in the Music Biz as well. And did Audio for a Living. What do we have Now? Nothing. We don't even have RatShack.

Go into Any Best Buy (where most people go) and just take a look at what they have (Broken) to listen too. Its a shame. We got to the point that if it does not appeal to a cretin large group of people, its not important. And that's just sad.

Sorry about the rant.
 

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I'm going to be blunt and say yes. Yes, you will need a DSP even if it's a low cost one like the Dayton. Why? Very simple.... few headunits have enough EQ to tame the acoustics of a car and that Pioneer Nex is one. What you do to alter the response in one set of speakers, the next will see including the subs. When it comes to EQ, per channel is king, left and right is next in line (one seat tune), and the sacrifices pile up from there on.

If you've invested a decent amount on good gear like you have, don't leave the result up to the mercy of response shaping limitations. Give it the advantage it deserves. Get a DSP!

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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I'm going to be blunt and say yes. Yes, you will need a DSP even if it's a low cost one like the Dayton. Why? Very simple.... few headunits have enough EQ to tame the acoustics of a car and that Pioneer Nex is one. What you do to alter the response in one set of speakers, the next will see including the subs. When it comes to EQ, per channel is king, left and right is next in line (one seat tune), and the sacrifices pile up from there on.

If you've invested a decent amount on good gear like you have, don't leave the result up to the mercy of response shaping limitations. Give it the advantage it deserves. Get a DSP!

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
I'm gonna agree with Bayboy, the answer is yes, you need a dsp.
 
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