Doubling number of mids/tweets?

5612 Views 68 Replies 23 Participants Last post by pwnt by pat, Apr 21, 2009

tspence73

Discussion Starter · Apr 17, 2009

Hi,

I was thinking over my options and thought that since adding an additional driver that is receiving the same power will double the output (add 3db loudness), I was considering my A-Pillar install and thought if I were to use dual mids and dual tweets, I could increase SPL output and maintain better fidelity at high output.

Doing dual 2" soft-dome mids per side (4-total) like these:

Cadence ZX-2M 2" 100 Watt RMS High Power Silk Soft Dome Midrange / Tweeter pair - ZX-2M

And mate them with dual 1" Infinity Ref silk softdome tweets I have now.

Then do an active crossover and pretty much mimic the passive xover 18db/octave @ 3,500Hz.

I figure it would sound pretty good. I would do a very steep highpass to the 2" mids @ like 300-350Hz and hopefully they can hold up to the output I will test them with.

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falkenbd

· #2 · Apr 17, 2009

bad idea. end of thread.

you never read that stuff I linked to you the other day did you?

Read about LOBING, Comb Filtering, phase, cancellation.....

If you don't spend the time reading about stuff, you will have no idea how to properly implement this.

First of all, tweeters are usually the most sensitive speaker, you shouldn't need 2 of those, and its riskiest to use 2 of them.

SOME people use multiple mids (THINK MTM) in their car, but they don't have their head up their own anus before starting...

Do some serious research on MTM and arrays before you delve into this.

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falkenbd

· #3 · Apr 17, 2009

Seriously before you get into all this crazy stuff you should try to perfect what you have.

You refuse to do any research on acoustics and want to get into some stuff that is very technical.

You'd be doing yourself a favor to understand it. Otherwise it'll just be a bunch of loud uneven responsed BS in your car.

Maybe thats good enough. GO for it.

tspence73

Discussion Starter · #4 · Apr 17, 2009

How the heck do you research something like this exactly? Also, all the mids/tweets will be located in close proximity to each other in the A-Pillar. So, it's not like I'll need to worry about poor imaging. There are tons of expensive high-end home systems with multiple mids and tweets.

falkenbd

· #5 · Apr 17, 2009

There is a lot of research behind the placement and baffle that those speakers use.

Crossover points, attenuation, notch filters are all created because of the relationship and distance between speakers.

Search and read about LOBING, Comb Filtering, MTM,

Here is a start:

Interference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

falkenbd

· #6 · Apr 17, 2009

If you really care, you'll spend DAYS looking up posts from abmolech and werewolf.

Where I'm from they have these things called libraries, and inside of the libraries are books, and recently they have music and movie collections as well.

Experts on subjects often write books and have them published for the uninformed people to read.

Check your local library for books on speaker design, acoustics, crossover design.

Heck,even a physics books talks about sound waves, maybe you can get a real grasp on something if you understand WHY it happens.

First understand the most basic thing about what we are talking about. That would be sound waves. Go backwards from there, until you get to loudspeaker design.

Seriously, if you want to build MTM's in your car, you are going to have to learn more about audio than you learned about math in high school...

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traceywatts

· #7 · Apr 17, 2009

tspence73 said:
How the heck do you research something like this exactly? Also, all the mids/tweets will be located in close proximity to each other in the A-Pillar. So, it's not like I'll need to worry about poor imaging. There are tons of expensive high-end home systems with multiple mids and tweets.

if for no other reason, do you REALLY want to double the output in the area most likely to drive you to deafness? try the mtm. your proposed idea MAY work, but i would be very careful, if i were you. it may be more trouble than it's worth.

also, i see you get a lot of roused responses. do you actually attempt to implement your questions, or just drive a biased debate against you?

89grand

· #8 · Apr 17, 2009

I've never see any reason to use more than 1 midrange and tweeter per side from an output prospective plus I never felt like battling the other problems that come with it. Try different drivers or more power instead if you are not happy with the output you have.

Multiple subs and midbass may make sense, but that's about it.

falkenbd

· #9 · Apr 17, 2009

Ok TSPENCE. I dug this up for you. It's up to you know.

This info would take an intelligent person weeks to read and fully comprehend. Those intelligent people would also do further research in as many locations as possible about the concepts discussed herein. Not just on internet forums.

Can you handle it?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/37931-important-technical-threads-list.html

Here is some stuff you should really look into in this thread:::

Acoustics
all threads in this section 5 to 10 times each on separate occasions so it sets in

Crossovers
again read it all, a bunch of times - try to fully understand it

The rest
some of the rest might be less important for the purpose of this thread, but READ it

There is seriously enough information in there to take you a couple of months to read.

Don't start getting ideas in your head until you understand the concepts...

THEN all thats left to do is apply the concepts and see what you can come up with.

TRY something out, measure it, maybe discuss your results and see if others have ideas of why they happened.

You are bordering on getting into some difficult stuff, that is not for average joe who wants a stereo in his car. You should read until your eyes bleed and then wait a day and do it all over again (repeat this process like 40 times)

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falkenbd

· #10 · Apr 17, 2009

I found this for you as well:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/50365-helpful-links-beginners.html#post606040

If it wasn't hard for me to find, why is it so hard for you to find?

falkenbd

· #11 · Apr 17, 2009

Here is a link to one of those book thingies I was talking about earlier. Call the chamber of commerce in your city and see if there is a library. Maybe you can check this out at the library or read it while sitting at the library.

Amazon.com: Master Handbook of Acoustics: F. Alton Everest: Books

This is what learning is all about

Sorry for the semi-rant but at least it is helpful.

falkenbd

· #12 · Apr 17, 2009

tspence73 said:
How the heck do you research something like this exactly?

I just showed you some places to start researching... 3, 2, 1, GO!

tspence73 said:
Also, all the mids/tweets will be located in close proximity to each other in the A-Pillar. So, it's not like I'll need to worry about poor imaging.

HOLY CAT FECES SUPERWOMAN WHERE DID YOU GET THAT...

Assuming that because they are in close proximity in the a-pillar will make it so you don't have to worry about imaging -

tspence73 said:
There are tons of expensive high-end home systems with multiple mids and tweets.

We have had the discussion before that assuming something that is expensive applies that the components are good. Not to mention the fact that they have HUNDREDS of hours of research into making those speakers and you have wasted hundreds of hours of yours and others time.

You made me miss a meeting, I'm done ranting now.

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capnxtreme

· #13 · Apr 17, 2009

tspence73 said:
since adding an additional driver that is receiving the same power will double the output (add 3db loudness)

It didn't take halfway through your first sentence before a facepalm:

1. Decibels are not a measurement of loudness.
2. Doubling loudness corresponds to a 10dB gain, not 3dB.

dubbreak

· #14 · Apr 17, 2009

tspence73 said:
There are tons of expensive high-end home systems with multiple mids and tweets.

Ah not with multiple tweets. That == comb filtering. You can't get them close enough together to mitigate it. Line arrays are a different story, but you would need a lot more tweeters than 2 (think 16+) and I really doubt a line array would work in a car well.

With multiple mids they are either mtm (mids surrounding the tweeter, which controls/limits vertical dispersion) or are tmm which should be implemented as a 2.5 way (lower mid/woofer comes in at a lower frequency often to help with BSC). With mids seperated too far you get lobing issues.

Sometimes you'll see something like a mtmmm. Which is a mtm combined with a 2.5 way (lower two woofers are the .5 that roll in at a lower frequency than the mids/woofers that surround the tweeter).

shadowfactory

· #15 · Apr 17, 2009 (Edited)

Jesus christ if you want loud with great imaging just buy some god damned HORNS and call it a day. It's not hard.

ID cd1-e's.... go!

Multiple tweeter setups are for deaf people and spl burp vehicles, and always suck ass.

p.s.

horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns horns

plus they can be crossed low, like at 600-900 hertz depending on the model. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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shadowfactory

· #16 · Apr 17, 2009

capnxtreme said:
It didn't take halfway through your first sentence before a facepalm:

1. Decibels are not a measurement of loudness.
2. Doubling loudness corresponds to a 10dB gain, not 3dB.

x100000000000000000000000

How can you seriously still attempt complex audio installs WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH IT TAKES TO DOUBLE AN SPL LEVEL

bass_lover1

· #17 · Apr 17, 2009

Dude, mail me some of the **** you're smoking, cause it must be ****ing amazing for you to believe the **** you think of are good ideas.

You must be pretty deaf, when I still had my HAT L3s in my a-pillars, I could easily attain sound levels that were uncomfortable after a matter of seconds.

Fast1one

· #18 · Apr 17, 2009

Actually going MTM isn't a bad idea whatsoever in a car. Obviously, driver choice and implementation needs to be carefully considered. However, MTMs have a reduced dispersion in the vertical plane and therefore reduced reflections on the ceiling and floor.

May not matter so much in a large room, but in a tiny car its a glorious idea...

Fast1one

· #19 · Apr 17, 2009

Actually going MTM isn't a bad idea whatsoever in a car. Obviously, driver choice and implementation needs to be carefully considered. However, MTMs have a reduced dispersion in the vertical plane and therefore reduced reflections on the ceiling and floor.

May not matter so much in a large room, but in a tiny car its a glorious idea...

capnxtreme

· #20 · Apr 17, 2009

Vertical MTM w/ 2" widebanders in the kicks would be sexy IMO.

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