DiyMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

21 - 40 of 71 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
I'm trying to ID DSP(s) that will work for my project so I know what to watch for in the classifieds (I know I'll not be buying new).



Must Have Requirements:

  • >8-channel high-level speaker input: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Ability to Sum: [(input 1) + (input 2/180) + (input 3/180)] = output 1 OR [(input 1) - (input 2) - (input 3)] = output 1
  • >8-channel low-level RCA output: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Usual complement of TA, EQ, and output XO tuning capabilities


(Background reason for some of the requirements is here if interested)



The end-goal is to have:

  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position


The ability to easily 'toggle' to a second tune 'compromised' for two front occupants would be a bonus but is not a 'must have' (if that involves a significant extra expense such as Helix Director I'd probably do without for a long time).



My research indicates the Helix DSP Pro Mk2 with DSP PC-Tool Version 4 will meet all the above requirements. Can anyone confirm that (especially the input 'summing' capability part)?



Will the earlier Helix DSP Pro Mk1 / Helix DSP Pro meet those same requirements?



Any other DSP that can meet all those requirements?



I plan to use with JBL MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 amps I already have in hand if that makes any difference. Gonna miss the upmixed 'true center' of Logic 7 but the MS-8 can't deal with this vehicle's OEM 'tones and voices' scheme so it's out of the picture. It's a 2019 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E, I will not consider an HU swap.



Thanks In Advance for informed guidance! :)
PS8 PRO with PSC will do just fine here, in fact, more superior in my opinion for oem integration. I run arc and integrated successfully with it in a 2019 RidgeLine BE.


Also you will have more EQ control on the INPUT side to flatten the post honda amp signal. Helix is 5 bands. PS8 PRO is 12 bands 20hz to 20,000 all parametric with Allpass filters if needed.

You get way more flexibility with the PSC than you do with the HELIX. Tone controls are 3 bands vs 2. The PSC tucks nicely in the glasses holder see photo.

Helix will work, dont get me wrong, if you need a 2 seat tune and want to change the center then get helix for the true center option. i think the PS8PRO will get you there with more options from the psc controllers perspective.







Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
Confirmed Helix 5 bands vs 12 band
You also get more Input Delay in the ARC 11.04 ms vs 5.20 ms

Helix channels are ganged so your Center channel input DE-EQ would need to use a separate channel. ARC's are all independent and not ganged.

Input Sensitivity for OEM support is also far more superior on the ARC PS8 PRO. With the Arc you can choose 0.5V 2V 8V or 32V and you can mix low level input and high level input. 8v was too much input signal at volume 40 and 11v probably will be too.

With the helix you are " Highlevel Input6-channel highlevel loudspeaker input to connect the signal processor directly to loudspeaker outputs of OEM / aftermarket radios or OEM amplifiers that do not have any pre-amplifier outputs. Input sensi-tivity is factory-set to 11 Volts (maximum CCW posi-tion). It is possible to vary the sensitivity between 5 and 11 Volts with control 3 (Input Sensitivity). "
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,747 Posts
PS8 PRO with PSC will do just fine here, in fact, more superior in my opinion for oem integration. I run arc and integrated successfully with it in a 2019 RidgeLine BE.
The other day, didnt you say you haven't set up the OEM system to the arc yet?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
The other day, didnt you say you haven't set up the OEM system to the arc yet?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I haven't DE-EQ it fully since the EQ changes with the Volume and I do not have time to make 3 presets for 3 different volume modes plus the amp output schematic I was provided was incorrect and the wires to the DSP are all in phase or put of phase. I need time to set this up correctly.....in the software mind you!.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position
)

This is my goal
Preset 1 Volume 0-20 (one seat)
Preset 2 Volume 21-40 (one seat)
Preset 3 SQL TUNE from Digital Input (no input EQ)
Preset 4 Volume 12 (two seat)(preset 1 EQ curve)(Center input enabled) Daily for wife and I so she can hear music from the Center not the right Apillar.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
The ability to easily 'toggle' to a second tune 'compromised' for two front occupants would be a bonus but is not a 'must have' (if that involves a significant extra expense such as Helix Director I'd probably do without for a long time).)
ARC can switch presets without the PSC btw and I dont think you can with the HELIX without the director
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
Also, Mobile Toys in College Station Texas successfully integrate to a Honda RidgeLine with JL AUDIO processors

FiX-82 and a TwK-88. Why the two processors, you would have to Chris Pate and find out why.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,203 Posts
Woooo that's a gorgeous job right there. Looks like someone has mastered the faux-section process, where it looks like many different pieces but they are all one thing. Plus the stitching, just awesome.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
I'm trying to ID DSP(s) that will work for my project so I know what to watch for in the classifieds (I know I'll not be buying new).

Must Have Requirements:
  • >8-channel high-level speaker input: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Ability to Sum: [(input 1) + (input 2/180) + (input 3/180)] = output 1 OR [(input 1) - (input 2) - (input 3)] = output 1
  • >8-channel low-level RCA output: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Usual complement of TA, EQ, and output XO tuning capabilities
The end-goal is to have:
  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position
My experience with the JL fix 82 shows you only need 6 ch input for your goals or even less.

Front L&R tweeter & L&R door, center, sub. The rear will be derived from the front input and processed as you wish through the processor. In fact in talking with JL Audio they recommend using the least number of channels to capture a full range signal and then let the processor derive from there. I had already hooked up all my inputs but did play around with turning different ones off and on and running calibration sweeps. If memory serves correctly I think the front doors see a full 20-20k. I would have to double check. However, if so, you'd only need front door and center inputs to achieve your goal. The processor would handle the routing from there.

I'm gathering parts to upgrade my system again and found the ARC PS8 fits the bill nicely. I spoke to ARC and they said the PS8 could handle what the JL Fix 82 was doing albeit manually and with single global output EQ, so flattening the OE curve and tuning all in one place. More difficult but supposedly enough EQ resolution to do it. This is not as nice as say the PS8 Pro with separate input EQ and output EQ. Or stacking the JL fix82 with the PS8. (As an aside I'll be posting a used PS8 for sale as I came across a great deal on a new PS8-50 alowing me to eliminate 1 stand alone amplifier from my build)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Why the two processors said:
Fix82 handles flattening the OE output automtically and has a 10 band eq built in to further dial things in. If you want to "tweak" further you add he TWK88 for more eq resolution/features...time alignment etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
This is my goal
Preset 1 Volume 0-20 (one seat)
Preset 2 Volume 21-40 (one seat)
Preset 3 SQL TUNE from Digital Input (no input EQ)
Preset 4 Volume 12 (two seat)(preset 1 EQ curve)(Center input enabled) Daily for wife and I so she can hear music from the Center not the right Apillar.
I'm changing things up and have a PS8-50 in the works. Could you explain in a little more detail why you chose this strategy as opposed to leaving the stock volume fixed at say 38 and then using the PSC to handle volume?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
Great choice, you wont be dissatisfied.

I am doing it this way because my wife wants things simple.
We will be using preset 4, 90% of the time since we car pool and usually listen to the local radio.

She could careless how it sounds, as long as the navigation prompts work as expected and phone calls come in properly. This requires the PSC volume to be at 0.0db.

Now, when I'm alone and listening to the OEM radio, I'll switch to preset 1 or 2 depending where I want to be volume. Same concept for Preset 4, PSC Volume is 0.0db and i simply ride the oem volume.

Now, If i want to use the FiiO, I have to use the PSC volume. Navigation ducking is enabled for preset 3 in the PS8 software, so the DSP will auto attenuate when Nav promts come in.
Only drawback is, phone calls require the FiiO to be paused and I have to bring the PSC volume back to 0.0db.

Hope this helps

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
Fix82 handles flattening the OE output automtically and has a 10 band eq built in to further dial things in. If you want to "tweak" further you add he TWK88 for more eq resolution/features...time alignment etc.
My circle of audio friends advised me to steer clear of the JL FIX products. The dont do everyrhing as advirtised in the TA removing department and they sound just okay.



Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Great choice, you wont be dissatisfied.

I am doing it this way because my wife wants things simple.
We will be using preset 4, 90% of the time since we car pool and usually listen to the local radio.

She could careless how it sounds, as long as the navigation prompts work as expected and phone calls come in properly. This requires the PSC volume to be at 0.0db.

Now, when I'm alone and listening to the OEM radio, I'll switch to preset 1 or 2 depending where I want to be volume. Same concept for Preset 4, PSC Volume is 0.0db and i simply ride the oem volume.

Now, If i want to use the FiiO, I have to use the PSC volume. Navigation ducking is enabled for preset 3 in the PS8 software, so the DSP will auto attenuate when Nav promts come in.
Only drawback is, phone calls require the FiiO to be paused and I have to bring thw PSC volume back to 0.0db.

Hope this helps

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
I understand the wife strategy for preset 4.

I'm more curious about the preset 1&2 volume ranges vs OE Eq. Did you test & find the OE eq varies in "steps" at certain volume positions or is it continuously variable? I guess what I'm saying is how did you decide 0-20 is one preset vs 20-40? And why set the PSC at 0db vs doing it the other way around. I'm assuming to retain steering wheel control? I'm also guessing maybe you found the stock Eq change is acceptable in those ranges if you have compensation in the PS8 for that preset. Correct me if I have the wrong assumptions.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
I understand the wife strategy for preset 4.

I'm more curious about the preset 1&2 volume ranges vs OE Eq. Did you test & find the OE eq varies in "steps" at certain volume positions or is it continuously variable? I guess what I'm saying is how did you decide 0-20 is one preset vs 20-40? And why set the PSC at 0db vs doing it the other way around. I'm assuming to retain steering wheel control? I'm also guessing maybe you found the stock Eq change is acceptable in those ranges if you have compensation in the PS8 for that preset. Correct me if I have the wrong assumptions.
I briefly tested(AudioControl RTA at a local shop) the volume at 20 and 40 and watched the RTA as the OEM radio changed the EQ. I have to locate my MAudio USB-PRE to make the OEM input EQ changes. Also, only having 4 presets is another reason for 0-20 and 21-40.

Leaving the PSC Volume at 0 retained, Streeting Volume, Navigation and Phone calls.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
My circle of audio friends advised me to steer clear of the JL FIX products. The dont do everyrhing as advirtised in the TA removing department and they sound just okay.



Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
I agree with that. I've been out of the car audio game for a while.
(started in car audio in the early 90's and later worked for a french driver manufacturer and ironically spent time on the OE side of car audio when they were supplying Harman Motive but lot's changed on the integration side since then)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,019 Posts
Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
This is my goal
Preset 1 Volume 0-20 (one seat)
Preset 2 Volume 21-40 (one seat)
Preset 3 SQL TUNE from Digital Input (no input EQ)
Preset 4 Volume 12 (two seat)(preset 1 EQ curve)(Center input enabled) Daily for wife and I so she can hear music from the Center not the right Apillar.
With presets 1, 2, & 3, is the center input enabled and if yes, what speaker output is that routed to through your DSP? If center input is not enabled for those presets, then you lose some vehicle voices (nav guidance) when using those presets to play music from an OEM music source input (e.g. USB, CD player), correct?

My experience with the JL fix 82 shows you only need 6 ch input for your goals or even less.

Front L&R tweeter & L&R door, center, sub. The rear will be derived from the front input and processed as you wish through the processor. In fact in talking with JL Audio they recommend using the least number of channels to capture a full range signal and then let the processor derive from there. I had already hooked up all my inputs but did play around with turning different ones off and on and running calibration sweeps. If memory serves correctly I think the front doors see a full 20-20k. I would have to double check. However, if so, you'd only need front door and center inputs to achieve your goal. The processor would handle the routing from there.
I agree that using minimal inputs to get a full-range signal for DSP processing is most appropriate for music. However, that does not retain all vehicle voices and tones when they are distributed among different channels on the OEM amp outputs as is the case with the Ridgeline RTL-E / BE.

Front door L&R, even if 20-20kHz, are used to broadcast certain vehicle tones/voices and are attenuated when that occurs. Rear door L&R broadcast music only and have a different muting/attenuation scheme compared to the front when certain vehicle voices/tones are broadcast.

My 'requirement' to accept all 8 of the RTL-E inputs is to have the best chance at getting signals into the DSP which can be manipulated to cancel the 'dumb L+R music' that's broadcast on the OEM center (more on that at this post). We all know that a 'dumb L+R center' (as opposed to an up-mixed center that plays only what's on L and R) plays havoc with front stage imaging at best. That's the problem I'm trying to eliminate with music, while retaining the vehicle voices/tones that are only on the OEM center amp output.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
With presets 1, 2, & 3, is the center input enabled and if yes, what speaker output is that routed to through your DSP? If center input is not enabled for those presets, then you lose some vehicle voices (nav guidance) when using those presets to play music from an OEM music source input (e.g. USB, CD player), correct?
I simply have the center channel attenuated to the lowest setting in the Radio making it barely audible.
When Nav and Guideance prompts, it ignores the Center level set by the user

Rears are not routed the PS8PRO.
I only use TW (L & R) and Front (L & R)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,497 Posts
That's the problem I'm trying to eliminate with music, while retaining the vehicle voices/tones that are only on the OEM center amp output.]
.....deleted....incorrect information
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,019 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
I simply have the center channel attenuated to the lowest setting in the Radio making it barely audible.
When Nav and Guideance prompts, it ignores the Center level set by the user
OK, so that's an acceptable compromise for you, still broadcasting the 'dumb L+R center' at "barely audible" levels. No worries, it's your vehicle.

Maybe that's where I end up, but for now I'm still aiming for no compromise of the front stage with a 'dumb L+R center' at any level. I won't now if that's possible unless I try, and that's requiring some 'outside-the-box' thinking.

PS8PRO/PS8-50 will be the only DSP that will do this unless you can find another DSP that has Navigation Ducking
EDIT - ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE ABOVE WAS DELETED WHILE I WAS COMPOSING THE FOLLOWING

I respectfully disagree. There are other DSPs which support mixing/inverting of inputs to 'cancel' a signal as I propose with the RTL-E center channel music. I can find nothing solely unique to the ARC processors or their software related to management of a center channel input / output.

We know, for example, that Helix DSP Pro mkI and mkII with their software does in fact allow management of each discrete input channel mixing, independent of all other inputs, and routing of any mixed output to any discrete speaker. It does not require anything to be managed as 'channel pairs'. Helix does support manipulating the level of each discrete signal used in mixing, a feature which may prove useful in my case.

Please understand I'm not in any way slamming the ARC DSPs (or any other) - I'm just studying all of them with an open mind looking for the DSP most likely to facilitate meeting all of my objectives.
 
21 - 40 of 71 Posts
Top