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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Full report attached via PDF.

Edit:
I would like to thank Mat and Jerry for hooking me up with these drivers to test. Mat (BuickGN) purchased a set from Jerry (Niebur3) and offered to send them in for testing but was worried about warranty. Jerry contacted Dyn regarding this and the folks at Dyn said they would warranty the drivers if I damaged them during testing. I'm not sure I can name many other companies that would be willing to do this so props to Dyn are due.

Driver:
Dyn Esotar2 430
Dynaudio - Authentic Fidelity

Pictures:




Impedance and T/S Parameters:

  • Re = 4.1062 ohms
  • Fs = 84.0135 Hz
  • Zmax = 30.6913 ohms
  • Qes = 0.2936
  • Qms = 1.9011
  • Qts = 0.2544
  • Le = 0.1025 mH (at 1 kHz)
  • Diam = 79.3750 mm ( 3.1250 in )
  • Sd = 4948.3152 mm^2( 7.6699 in^2)
  • Vas = 2.4071 L ( 0.0850 ft^3)
  • BL = 6.1872 N/A
  • Mms = 5.1860 g
  • Cms = 692.0024 uM/N
  • Kms = 1445.0817 N/M
  • Rms = 1.4400 R mechanical
  • Efficiency = 0.4567 %
  • Sensitivity= 88.6147 dB @1W/1m
  • Sensitivity= 91.5112 dB @2.83Vrms/1m

Klippel Distortion Parameters Limited Xmax:
  • X Bl @ Bl min=82% 2.6 mm
  • X C @ C min=75% 3.1 mm

Klippel Results Sample:










 

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Discussion Starter #5
I must say, I really was saddened to see there is no shorting method employed on this driver. At it's MSRP, I don't see why such a cheap part wasn't employed in the design/build.
 

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I wonder if Dynaudio could/would comment on that. With the price of these, I can't imagine a $1 part not being included if it would have made a difference.

I'm not that good at understanding klippel results but it looks like the rated xmax and the klippel are almost dead on.
 

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I really thought this test would generate more discussion. Come on all you esotar lovers, what do you think?
 

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I will say it actually ISN'T as bad as I expected. In fact, I don't think it's really bad at all. It also looks like Dyn's T/S is pretty honest about what you're getting, if you take their p-p XMAX it is pretty close to the 1-way Erin got. Even though the curves are offset, they still look pretty symmetrical. LE shows it wouldn't be a good contender as a widebander, but I don't think Dyn claims that either.

If I had to venture a guess as to why these get such rave reviews:

1.) You just spent $1,600, you WANT it to sound good and it probably WILL.

2.) The QTS is extremely low. If you run these "IB" they are "critically damped" meaning that it SHOULD lead to a very clean/tight sound. Combine that with a paper cone and you can get some "warmth" people tend to like.

Having said that, I don't think I could justify spending $1,600 on these. I know I said performance wasn't bad, but there are several speakers that cost 1/2 this price and perform better (Scan 12mu is an easy example). I mean, the Scan's aren't cheap, and they are bargain compared to what Dyn wants us to pay.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
John, I agree.

Symmetry on these drivers is good. There's small offset with both Bl and Kms but that could be on purpose or simply production error (this is where I agree with Mat; it would be great to get input from the mfg here).

The only thing that really bothers me is Le(x). And, honestly, the differential between coil in/out isn't much (0.15mH) so it's not the number that gets me... it's the simple fact that on a $1600 set of speakers they didn't employ some sort of shorting technology. Maybe they simply didn't feel the need. Like you said, this isn't intended to extend far on the top end.

You hit something I have mentioned in private with others; the purpose of these drivers aren't quite what we use some of the other, more beefy, 4" midranges for nor is it to be used as a wideband driver. This driver is truly a dedicated midrange. The user of these drivers likely wouldn't (and probably doesn't need to, depending on dynamic range desired) cross these much below 300hz, maybe 250hz at most on the low end and around this range, I start to put less stock in xmax and begin putting more weight in to driver characteristics such as build parts, geometry, etc. Do the soft parts cause audible resonances? What's the FR curve? What's the nominal bandwidth? Those kind of things. On the other end of the spectrum, how high will they extend? Well, beaming is going to be an issue around 4khz or so (just ballparking, you do the math ;)). Some like that (higher directivity = less reflection off surrounding surfaces). Some don't. Personally, I'd take these up to around 3500hz and mate them with a tweeter as part of a 3-way front stage from around 300-3500hz, give or take.

All in all, this driver seems to be good. It's got a nice form factor and very small enclosure space needed. Symmetry is really nice, and FR (published) is nice for the most likely passband. So, the real purchase decision is burdened by the cost; not so much performance.

My $.02.


*Edit:
Yes, I've listened. What I've said above, objectively, actually pretty much sums up my subjective thoughts as well.
 

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And I agree with you again. For me though, it's hard to justify the cost. In fact, it's damn near impossible. After "dumbing down" the build in my Maxima, I have less than $1600 invested in the entire setup, and I can guarantee my stereo sounds better than these speakers off h/u power. :D

If I had to assign "importance" to getting a great sounding 3-way setup, I would pick midrange as the #1 factor, closely followed acoustic treatments for the midbass. So it is clearly important to me, and these may very well be the holy grail of midranges. Sadly, my pockets aren't deep enough to ever find out.

I will say one last time though, they look to be good performers and anybody who owns them should be happy. As long as you didn't break the bank to get them, otherwise feel free to have buyers remorse for not buying the Scan 12mu, 18wu, D2004, and then taking your wife out to dinner to Ruth's Chris. ;)
 

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*Edit:
Yes, I've listened. What I've said above, objectively, actually pretty much sums up my subjective thoughts as well.

Good job on the Klippel test reports! :thumbsup:

This is very interesting as well as frustrating since all my speakers are already bought! These reports make want to try a few speakers to just play around with..
 

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I was looking at these Drivers thinking (I think the FS was 64) would be a great choice for Crossing at 200Hz, but sadly the laws of Physics come into play.


I see a few guys crossing 3" Drivers that low, but IMO it sounds like $()^%!
 

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Thanks for the testing Erin!! I can definitely agree with you that these are NOT widebanders and IMO absolutely sound amazing IF you keep them in the passband they were designed for (and even better in a very small enclosure).

The other aspect we have to look at is the viability of installation and what is required t get the most out of the drivers. These quite possibly could be the easiest to install due to their size and insanely small enclosure requirements which may allow you to physically locate the drivers in a better spot in the car aiding in sq advantages.

(I am now technically biased because I am a Dyn dealer and have them in my car. I was not a dealer and there was no bias during the midrange test where "blind", they finished first.)
 

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Thanks for the testing Erin!! I can definitely agree with you that these are NOT widebanders and IMO absolutely sound amazing IF you keep them in the passband they were designed for (and even better in a very small enclosure).

The other aspect we have to look at is the viability of installation and what is required t get the most out of the drivers. These quite possibly could be the easiest to install due to their size and insanely small enclosure requirements which may allow you to physically locate the drivers in a better spot in the car aiding in sq advantages.

(I am now technically biased because I am a Dyn dealer and have them in my car. I was not a dealer and there was no bias during the midrange test where "blind", they finished first.)
I do agree that from a true midrange branded for car audio standpoint, these really look great. I love the fact that the low Qts allows for a small enclsoure.

The only thing that comes close IMHO is the HAT L4/L4SE but Scott recommends those IB AFAIK. I don't car much for IB in the pillars (where a 3-4" mid usually goes) since usually all you get other than the baffle is the plastic from the pillar to seperate the front and back waves. While that may suffice for keeping the waves from cancelling, it doesn't do much to block the sound itself which is out of phase with the front wave. If you do put them in an inclosure to combat this, Qtc goes up, which can hurt the transient response.

The problem as I see it is that it's still VERY expensive and for a DIY crowd there are raw speakers (like the Scans) that will do as well/better for less $$. But in terms of speakers sold as car audio drivers, I think this would be a top contender for best midrange (when used as a true midrange).

Lastly, since I haven't actually said it yet, it does seem crazy to me too that shorting rings weren't used to help lower Le a bit. I'm sure the margin on these is insane and spending just a few bucks to help have a great low end transient response (Qts) and high end roll-off (Le) seems like a given to me.
 

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Someone remind me why LE asymmetries don't matter for a dedicated midrange? When are you most likely to get a different inductance on the front vs. the rear excursion? Isn't it at high xmax? Isn't that low in the midrange? Seems to me like it matters everywhere in a midrange or wideband application. It makes me cringe to see differentials like this outside of the subwoofer segement. I mean cones have crappy LE already. Look at a BG planar to get an idea of how it should look like.

For all practical purposes we don't know whether Dyn used a shorting ring or not. They may have but it wasn't implemented properly. It's also not that cheap since it requires the tooling of the motor. With that said, a $45 Peerless SLS 7" woofer has one and it is properly implemented.

I thought the cone was plastic not paper?

I think a great way to get this kind of performance cheap might be the SB 4" midrange. With SB you also get the 4" woofer to cross low if you want. There is also the Faital. Both are less than $60 each.

Some of your money goes toward the magnet in this guy. That's what gives you the sensitivity and small box requirement. That I do like.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I think a great way to get this kind of performance cheap might be the SB 4" midrange. With SB you also get the 4" woofer to cross low if you want. There is also the Faital. Both are less than $60 each.
performance aside, the one thing the Dyn has going for it is form factor. that makes or breaks a lot of people using something like the SB or Scan drivers.
 

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Someone remind me why LE asymmetries don't matter for a dedicated midrange? When are you most likely to get a different inductance on the front vs. the rear excursion? Isn't it at high xmax? Isn't that low in the midrange? Seems to me like it matters everywhere in a midrange or wideband application. It makes me cringe to see differentials like this outside of the subwoofer segement. I mean cones have crappy LE already. Look at a BG planar to get an idea of how it should look like.
I'm still playing catch up with some of you guys on these things, but I thought LE was mostly a function of a driver's natural "low pass" filter -aka- high end roll-off. As long as the roll-off occurs 2x higher than where you choose to cross the speaker, it will have no real affect on the speaker.

I gleaned this information from Lycan/Werewolf in the "Fast Bass, Slow Bass" thread.

If my above comments are true, it becomes quite important with subs since the LE needs to be low enough to not affect the midbass transition. I know when I was considering the Polk MM 15", LE was bad enough in modeling that I would either have to HP at like 40hz or deal with an odd phase shift from the "natural HP" cascading with my selected HP in a pretty critical transition. In midrange, however, you aren't as sensitive to phase shifts at the HP (try swapping the polarity on one tweeter and see how noticeable it is) so I could see where it is less critical there than in midbass and sub selection. I'm not saying it isn't important or noticeable, but I can see where more focus is put on the subs and midbass drivers.


I think a great way to get this kind of performance cheap might be the SB 4" midrange. With SB you also get the 4" woofer to cross low if you want. There is also the Faital. Both are less than $60 each.

Some of your money goes toward the magnet in this guy. That's what gives you the sensitivity and small box requirement. That I do like.
performance aside, the one thing the Dyn has going for it is form factor. that makes or breaks a lot of people using something like the SB or Scan drivers.
I agree. :D

The problem as I see it is that it's still VERY expensive and for a DIY crowd there are raw speakers (like the Scans) that will do as well/better for less $$. But in terms of speakers sold as car audio drivers, I think this would be a top contender for best midrange (when used as a true midrange).
 

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I'm still playing catch up with some of you guys on these things, but I thought LE was mostly a function of a driver's natural "low pass" filter -aka- high end roll-off. As long as the roll-off occurs 2x higher than where you choose to cross the speaker, it will have no real affect on the speaker.

I gleaned this information from Lycan/Werewolf in the "Fast Bass, Slow Bass" thread.

If my above comments are true, it becomes quite important with subs since the LE needs to be low enough to not affect the midbass transition. I know when I was considering the Polk MM 15", LE was bad enough in modeling that I would either have to HP at like 40hz or deal with an odd phase shift from the "natural HP" cascading with my selected HP in a pretty critical transition. In midrange, however, you aren't as sensitive to phase shifts at the HP (try swapping the polarity on one tweeter and see how noticeable it is) so I could see where it is less critical there than in midbass and sub selection. I'm not saying it isn't important or noticeable, but I can see where more focus is put on the subs and midbass drivers.






I agree. :D
There are two aspects of inductance which are mixed in this thread, one is magnitude, where a lower inductance tells you the vc stores less energy, and the variance with excursion. It's the latter that's the problem with the Dyn. and that is manifested greatly over larger excursions.
 

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There are two aspects of inductance which are mixed in this thread, one is magnitude, where a lower inductance tells you the vc stores less energy, and the variance with excursion. It's the latter that's the problem with the Dyn. and that is manifested greatly over larger excursions.
How would this problem show itself? Heat? Power hungry? Not wanting to play up high at higher excursions?

As for the rest of this thread it seems like most are using these from 220hz to 250hz with good success. I know of a couple that are running them from 6khz and one at 7khz. The 650s have good top end so 300-350hz would be my goal. However, I would like to play them up to 6khz. The higher I crossed the 142s, the smoother the tweeters got. They're far from harsh even at the current 2,200hz but they undoubtedly sound better high passed up higher.

We need to have another meet soon so you guys can hear these things. It seems like no one has heard them in the So Cal area. Like them or hate them, at least you'll be able to hear them and see how the subjective listening compares to the Klippel results. Oh, and there better be a 427" S2000 by the next meet.:D
 
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