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Electrical Theory For Advanced Techs Only

1.4K views 7 replies 5 participants last post by  Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX  
#1 ·
Assume the following setup: 2 RE Audio 12" XXX DVC 2ohm, wired down to 1 ohm, each to a Hifonics HFi3000D, where the woofer is suspended in free air. Now, assuming a test tone of 32Hz was sent to each driver, where each amp is pushing the full capacity of 3000 watts to each. Each of these amplifiers states it requires a fuse of 250amp. It may very well draw less than that, 3000watts divided 14.4volts equals 208.33amps, but no amp is 100% efficient, so for this theory we will assume the max draw (250amps times 2 amplifiers equals 500amps). So we can assume at any point in time, up to 7,200 watts of power is being "drawn" from it's source at a rate of 14.4V.

Now take a Kinetik HC2400 battery. It states it has 2600 cranking amps, and discharges at 128amps/Hour. 128amps/hour at 14.4V (yes i know it will not discharge at 14.4V, more like 12V without an outside source charging it, but stay with me), that means it can discharge at a rate of 1,843.2 watts/Hour until complete discharge (losing voltage the closer it gets to depletion).

My question is this, assuming the car is off and no outside source of power is recharging these exact model batteries, how many batteries will it take to sustain these two amplifiers fully powering these two drivers for approximately 30 seconds? Now how about 5 minutes?

Ready for the fun part? Now assume the car turns on. The vehicle houses a single 250amp alternator, but at idle (which it will be) is rated (and proven) to produce 100-125amps. Assuming the vehicle itself will require 40amps to run at idle, how many Kinetik HC2400 batteries will be required to sustain this test for approximately 30 seconds? And for 5 minutes?

You may be thinking, what the hell am I trying to prove? Well, I just installed a 250amp alternator made from Rush Power System. He said he could design me a dual alternator setup, however since no one else has ever made the request for my model vehicle, he would charge $750 for a 350amp and $500 for a custom bracket. Already did Big 3 upgraded to 1/0 KnoKonceptz and a Kinetik HC1400 starter battery. No subs in it now, and nothing special, just 4 Alpine Type-X REF speakers powered by a Hifonics 80w 4-channel. Between what I'm saving and tax money next year, I have a budget of $3,200. I want to put 2 12" RE Audio XXX each powered by a HFi3000D. I have personally seen these exact drivers being driven by upwards of 4000watts a piece and not malfunction. So too much power isn't an issue. I'm ripping the back seats out of my sedan, placing the enclosure where the seats used to be in a custom built ported box tuned to 32Hz and housing all the amplifiers, wiring, batteries, etc in the actual trunk. I need to know, realistically how many batteries I will need to compete in a real competition.

This may be overkill, but I've been to competitions, official and "unofficial" and I have a fun, it's something I enjoy, I'm willing to spend the money, and I have the full support of my local professional car audio shop (they already sponsor someone so wont sponsor me lol). They have already made their recommendations, but I want to hear from a community of people who actually use this equipment and know what to expect.
 
#2 ·
Assume the following setup: 2 RE Audio 12" XXX DVC 2ohm, wired down to 1 ohm, each to a Hifonics HFi3000D, where the woofer is suspended in free air. Now, assuming a test tone of 32Hz was sent to each driver, where each amp is pushing the full capacity of 3000 watts to each. E.................

You'll never push 3kw into a sub "free air" likely EVER, unless it's shorted or a REALLY REALLY inefficient driver..

the rest is kinda moot, you're on a SQ forum, so who effin cares what it takes to sustain 500A for 30sec "here".... take it CA.com ya basshead... :laugh:
 
#3 ·
Wanna really burn your noodle... you'll not likely hold 14.4v under load regardless, so your math is already off...
 
#4 ·
Ok, couple of things
1) basshead? lol i like that.
2) ok, obviously free air isn't what I'm putting it in, it will be in a ported very large enclosure.
3) Yes, I will be pushing 3000watts into each driver, for however long my vehicle can supply it.
4) Outside of dropping in another $1,300 to total 600amps worth of alternator power, you seriously telling me I can't push 6,000 watts total off of 13.8-14.4 volts? Voltage drops that bad? Absolute best cabling 1/0 KnoKonceptz, best battery manufacturer, wire runs kept as short as humanly possible, with an enclosure that will be test, rebuilt, retested, rebuilt until perfection is achieved?
 
#6 ·
From what I recall of school boy physics the wattage is irrelevant when calculating the time your bat would last, ampage is the only factor IIRC:

500amps draw and 128ah battery means you'd completely drain the battery in 15mins-if it were able to stay above 12v for that long (128/500=0.256Hrs) which it won't.

I'd estimate at about 2.5mins before the battery dropped to below 12v
14.4v/15min=0.96 volt drop per min
14.4-12=2.4 volts to drop before 12v
2.4/0.96=2.5

but, there are so many variables it's pretty much impossible for someone of my knowledge(or lack of) to comment any further, try re-posting in the SPL section and you might find someone who does know, otherwise try it and then tell us:)

But for 6000wrms I'd be looking at 2 alts and 4-5batteries.
 
#8 ·
From what I recall of school boy physics the wattage is irrelevant when calculating the time your bat would last, ampage is the only factor IIRC:

500amps draw and 128ah battery means you'd completely drain the battery in 15mins-if it were able to stay above 12v for that long (128/500=0.256Hrs) which it won't.

I'd estimate at about 2.5mins before the battery dropped to below 12v
14.4v/15min=0.96 volt drop per min
14.4-12=2.4 volts to drop before 12v
2.4/0.96=2.5

but, there are so many variables it's pretty much impossible for someone of my knowledge(or lack of) to comment any further, try re-posting in the SPL section and you might find someone who does know, otherwise try it and then tell us:)

But for 6000wrms I'd be looking at 2 alts and 4-5batteries.

The Baron has it on 12v, it is hard to say the efficiency of the amp and signal played makes for huge variables. Just add batteries until it works like you want. However as stated a 12v battery discharges at 12v, it takes ~13.5v to push current into it to charge it. Only 16v batteries will discharge at ~14v. Only an alternator will supply ~14v constant up to its capacity. Batteries only take over at 12v when the alternator is overcome and may have a resistance level where they only supply current so fast.

The issue is power vs dB is a log scale, you need 10X the power to get twice as loud. Nobody cares about going from a 50rms amp to 500, but over 1Kw power supply becomes an issue. Also your volume/gain level is log so the last 20% or whatever is going to multiply the power applied...meaning it will only take piles of power at max output. I'm sure there is lots of info in the SPL section those guys deal with this all the time for comps. All this power stuff is another reason they try to use the most efficient box, fill the car walls with concrete and all that stuff....because all that is free output and takes no power. You may want to model and test to get your setup to make the peak output at the frequency you intend to use, all those guys will.

Everything I wanted to say, but 1000x better...
 
#7 ·
The Baron has it on 12v, it is hard to say the efficiency of the amp and signal played makes for huge variables. Just add batteries until it works like you want. However as stated a 12v battery discharges at 12v, it takes ~13.5v to push current into it to charge it. Only 16v batteries will discharge at ~14v. Only an alternator will supply ~14v constant up to its capacity. Batteries only take over at 12v when the alternator is overcome and may have a resistance level where they only supply current so fast.

The issue is power vs dB is a log scale, you need 10X the power to get twice as loud. Nobody cares about going from a 50rms amp to 500, but over 1Kw power supply becomes an issue. Also your volume/gain level is log so the last 20% or whatever is going to multiply the power applied...meaning it will only take piles of power at max output. I'm sure there is lots of info in the SPL section those guys deal with this all the time for comps. All this power stuff is another reason they try to use the most efficient box, fill the car walls with concrete and all that stuff....because all that is free output and takes no power. You may want to model and test to get your setup to make the peak output at the frequency you intend to use, all those guys will.