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I'd like some creative suggestions for an install problem with stock locations (wouldn't we all?). It is for a '98 Saab 900 and because it is a Saab it is not exactly normal (just different). The stock speakers are relatively uncommon two-screw 3.5s, and the hole is not large enough for most 4-in speakers. The problem is that these are the main speakers in the system (I guess confirming that Saab is a driver's car). The other speakers are 2-way 6x9s in the rear that the engineers installed for immediate and complete image and soundstage destruction.

There ARE grilles and holes very low in the doors for door speakers, but none installed. I seem to have two options. 1) install a conventional 6-in door and dash tweeter system and deal with half the soundstage at my feet or 2) use door speakers for bass only and upgrade the dash speakers with a quality fullrange to get a smooth and more natural soundstage.

Am I right in thinking that if I can find full-range dash speakers I can treat them like tweeters with exceptionally low cut-off and not mess up the mid-range with a crossover and/or break up the soundstage?

After a long search, I landed on the small, but promising spec'd 2.75-in Wavecor (FR070WA01), which fits easily with an adapter plate. (fs 113 Hz, Vas .62. Qms 12.9, Qes .55, Qts .55)

I hoped their small diameter would aid high-end performance, and the .52 Qts and cabin gain would help extend the 113 Hz fs so that they would cross low enough to bass speakers. I had the chance to audition them in a DIY dealer showroom mounted in coffee-mug sized sealed enclosures. Even then, they sounded smooooth and accurate and satisfyingly musical--more like a bookshelf system than a 2-inch tweeter.

I've looked at the box calculators, which promise a 150 Hz (.475 L sealed) or 93 Hz (1.4 L ported) performance, but before attempting to build and install such enclosures (like a ship in a bottle through a 3.5 in hole), I have first just tried stuffing the dash with dense fiberfill for a sort of IB system.

The sound has the same full mid-bass to treble smoothness I heard in the showroom (and even about another octave more bass than the stock paper-cone speaker (cellos!))--and without that small-driver nasal shoutiness that I hate.

Am I on the right track, or is this just a blind alley when I try matching them to door speakers?

I would appreciate any advice from your experience.
 

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I'd like some creative suggestions for an install problem with stock locations (wouldn't we all?). It is for a '98 Saab 900 and because it is a Saab it is not exactly normal (just different). The stock speakers are relatively uncommon two-screw 3.5s, and the hole is not large enough for most 4-in speakers. The problem is that these are the main speakers in the system (I guess confirming that Saab is a driver's car). The other speakers are 2-way 6x9s in the rear that the engineers installed for immediate and complete image and soundstage destruction.

There ARE grilles and holes very low in the doors for door speakers, but none installed. I seem to have two options. 1) install a conventional 6-in door and dash tweeter system and deal with half the soundstage at my feet or 2) use door speakers for bass only and upgrade the dash speakers with a quality fullrange to get a smooth and more natural soundstage.

Am I right in thinking that if I can find full-range dash speakers I can treat them like tweeters with exceptionally low cut-off and not mess up the mid-range with a crossover and/or break up the soundstage?

After a long search, I landed on the small, but promising spec'd 2.75-in Wavecor (FR070WA01), which fits easily with an adapter plate. (fs 113 Hz, Vas .62. Qms 12.9, Qes .55, Qts .55)

I hoped their small diameter would aid high-end performance, and the .52 Qts and cabin gain would help extend the 113 Hz fs so that they would cross low enough to bass speakers. I had the chance to audition them in a DIY dealer showroom mounted in coffee-mug sized sealed enclosures. Even then, they sounded smooooth and accurate and satisfyingly musical--more like a bookshelf system than a 2-inch tweeter.

I've looked at the box calculators, which promise a 150 Hz (.475 L sealed) or 93 Hz (1.4 L ported) performance, but before attempting to build and install such enclosures (like a ship in a bottle through a 3.5 in hole), I have first just tried stuffing the dash with dense fiberfill for a sort of IB system.

The sound has the same full mid-bass to treble smoothness I heard in the showroom (and even about another octave more bass than the stock paper-cone speaker (cellos!))--and without that small-driver nasal shoutiness that I hate.

Am I on the right track, or is this just a blind alley when I try matching them to door speakers?

I would appreciate any advice from your experience.
This can work, but the problem you might run into is a lack of SPL. If possible, I wouldn't focus on getting the F3 as low as possible, but instead focus on getting the SPL numbers up. To pull off this hat trick, you'll be looking for a woofer with a lot of displacement and high efficiency. A lot of the small full ranges don't qualify, because the cone is too heavy. (heavy cone lowers your F3 but kills your efficiency.)

I think this is why Mark Audio puts a lot of effort into using very light and ridgid aluminum cones.

You'll want something with distortion killing features in the motor, such as an underhung motor or shorting rings, or both.

Vifa, Peerless, Fountek, and Mark Audio all offer good candidates. I have some Faital 3FE20s here that I like. The Faital has about 4dB more output than the competion, due to the use of a lighter cone and a motor that's extraordinarily powerful.

Downside to the Faital is a higher F3. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for your professional perspective. You are right. F3 is not everything, especially since the other speakers can handle the bass. I'll look into a higher roll off that gives cleaner high SPL to max out their capabilities. Honestly, to my over-30 ears, they play loud enough. I'll try to tune for best total system performance without being too heroic with any single component. And, I'll keep the Faital in mind, for step 3, just in case.

I plan to run some test tones to establish a baseline. I'll post the results as a scientific exercise, in case someone else comes this way.
 

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Don't go fullrange due to low Vd on those... but if you do, go Markaudio as Patrick said, or go CSS FR125s (4.5") which has something like 6mm of Xmax, which is comparable to cheap 6.5s with limited Xmax.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
My thanks to all who responded. You have taught me a lot and given me good pointers on some important performance parameters that I had not considered. I will now focus on rolling off the bottom end to support higher clean SPL while still trying to maintaining a crossoverless system through the lower midrange on up, which I think these speakers can support. After I have taken them as far as I can, I will certainly look to the several good looking alternatives you have suggested.

This is a great forum.
 

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Also recommend you look at the three inch Audible Physics driver. Many are using these in tweeter-less installs.
 

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If the dash speakers are aimed at the windshield, I would definitely recommend door speakers. Near reflections off the glass sound nasty.

Plus, the dash speakers are too small... they will lack efficiency and bass/midbass.

Door speakers will not sound as bad as you think... we tend to perceive sounds horizontally, not vertically... with a great set of comps in the doors, I think you'll be surprised just how good it will sound... it will certainly sound much better than dash speakers, for a multitude of reasons. Do yourself a favor and try it.
 

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Hi everyone. Just when I thought this thread was dying down, suddenly we get a flood of great new information. The augmented wideband idea sounds like what I have been groping toward in mind--and way better thought out.

Failing that, or in addition, I am now going to attack the door panels and install either door woofers, or as Gary S. suggests, Full-range or coaxial door speakers instead.

Every car is different, so I will take all of this advice into consideration as I experiment to find what works for me.

Here's a new question: When I look at rolling off the dash speakers between 100 and 300 hz, the impedance in that region is so high, the passive crossover components get really large and expensive. Ditto for the high pass in this region. Am I right in using the modeled in-box impedance response as the baseline for designing the crossover?

Thanks in advance. You guys always surprise me.
 

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If the dash speakers are aimed at the windshield, I would definitely recommend door speakers. Near reflections off the glass sound nasty.

Plus, the dash speakers are too small... they will lack efficiency and bass/midbass.

Door speakers will not sound as bad as you think... we tend to perceive sounds horizontally, not vertically... with a great set of comps in the doors, I think you'll be surprised just how good it will sound... it will certainly sound much better than dash speakers, for a multitude of reasons. Do yourself a favor and try it.
I usually don't post in threads about drivers, but a little mis-info is given.

But honestly the problem with making blank statement like this is you lead people who have never tried such setups down the wrong road at times, when you have tons of cars that run setups up dash mount mids, that honestly reflected off the the windshield and sound amazing.

Tell one of the best sounding cars around that:



Big Meat might have a little something to say about that:



This Acura sounded amazing, one of the best over the week at SBN2011:



there are many many more around here and around the world with setup like this that sound well outstanding!

I nice midrange or dome midrange with a tweeter or wide-bander or even nice small coax mount on the dash with a door mounted midbass works amazing well. There is nothing like having the midrange pull your mid-bass to above your dash. And it doesn't take running it down to 100hz. Correct tuning it can be down with running them down to 400-500hz.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all you said is totally incorrect about early reflection as a whole, but there is no way around reflection in the mobile environment.

To the OP is/if this you are interior, it would would work quite well.

 

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Glass reflections don't automatically change good sound to crap, but they are definitely more difficult to work with. I would say that in most cases, it would be a bad thing, the degree of which will vary from setup to setup. But it's not impossible to do it reasonably well.
 

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Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all you said is totally incorrect about early reflection as a whole, but there is no way around reflection in the mobile environment.
- There are different types of reflections... near, those who's arrival time is close to the direct sound from the speaker to the ear... and late reflections... and there is a big difference... our brains can separate the direct sound from later reflections.... but near reflections, such as those from dash mounted speakers fired at the windshield, cannot be separated by our brains. There is a huge difference in sound quality potential between kick locations which fire at the opposite door window and drivers firing close to and at the windshield.
 

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- There are different types of reflections... near, those who's arrival time is close to the direct sound from the speaker to the ear... and late reflections... and there is a big difference... our brains can separate the direct sound from later reflections.... but near reflections, such as those from dash mounted speakers fired at the windshield, cannot be separated by our brains. There is a huge difference in sound quality potential between kick locations which fire at the opposite door window and drivers firing close to and at the windshield.
Do you think this is important in the very high range, say above 10 khz or so for super tweeters? I ask because that's way beyond the range of our ability to directionally locate.
 

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Do you think this is important in the very high range, say above 10 khz or so for super tweeters? I ask because that's way beyond the range of our ability to directionally locate.
- I think the near-field reflections will still be a problem... the problem with near-field reflections is not just image related... there are frequancy response issues, phase issues, perhaps even precedence effect issues. Do a search on near-field speaker reflections on the web and see what you find.
 

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- I think the near-field reflections will still be a problem... the problem with near-field reflections is not just image related... there are frequancy response issues, phase issues, perhaps even precedence effect issues. Do a search on near-field speaker reflections on the web and see what you find.
Honestly i don't think anyone is debuting the problem reflections can cause, we all know this, but to tell the OP dash mounted drivers will not work is just mis-info. There are just to many amazing sounding install all around the world that say different. With the Euro guys, you would be hard pressed to get them to install there midrange and/or tweeters in the kicks.

Bottom line is nothing is set in stone when it comes down to mobile audio.I have just looked at to many installs and said man no way that should work, to all listen and be prove quit wrong.
 

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