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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

Since my Volvo has a quite caraudio unfriendly trunk (at least, if you want to keep a bit of space left), I decided to put 2 pairs of TangBand W6-1139SG in the front doors playing down to 25ish Hz (wich should be possible without bottoming them out according to WinISD) and up to 200ish Hz, with a single Peerless 12" XXLS in the trunk helping with the 20-50Hz part.
Going this way should be a lot lighter and taking up less space in the trunk compared to the original plan with 2 12" XXLSes in the trunk for sub bass and 2 pairs of Peerless SLS6.5's in front for midbass only (linear excursion isn't high enough to go really low with authority), hopefully without having to miss a lot of sub.

Now I was thinking, while I'm busy 'simplifying', why not use a pair of full-range speakers on the dashboard for 200ish Hz up to 20kHz instead of 5.5" Peerless Exclusive mids down low in the doors (same space as the TangBand minisubs, can't be optimal...) and Peerless HDS tweeters that only start at 2-2.5kHz on the dashboard?
Going this way should make sure the stage is 1 stage that is in front of me and make all voices come out of 1 pair of drivers instead of partly out of 5.5" woofers down low in the doors and partly out of a couple tweeters on the dashboard with a crossover that can do nasty thing in between.

I think everybody agrees the basic idea behind this is great and it's a way that knows many enthousiasts in diy home audio, but squeezing almost 7 octaves out of 1 driver is demanding quite a lot, especially in a non-ideal environment where volume levels are usually a little higher than in a living room, so I need good quality drivers, and off course, budget isn't unlimited.

Since I want them to play down to 200ish Hz but up to 20kHz, I think 4" drivers are the most logical compromise. 3" drivers might do the job too but only if they are efficient enough and have an x-max of 3-4mm one-way, wich is something I haven't seen yet in a 3" driver.
I've read some tests and I've looked what I can buy here in Belgium and I came up with these options:
- Omnes Audio BB 3.01, wich is very affordable at only 32€ a piece, but I can't find all specs (x-max has to be big enough since it's only a 3", but I can't find it?)
- CSS FR125SR with a huge xmax of 6mm one-way at 62.5€ a piece
- MarkAudio Alpair 6 with a huge xmax of 5mm one-way at 70€ a piece
- TangBand W4-1337 wich seems to be one of the better full-rangers but at 77€ a piece also the most expensive one of this list
- TangBand W4-1320 at 57€ a piece
- TangBand W4-655A at 32€ a piece

While searching for more specs of the Omnes driver, I found that Xenia claimed here somewhere it's the same as a TangBand driver, I don't know if that's true and if the specs are the same, because if I can't find the x-max of those things, or it is 2mm or lower, I can't (risk to) use them.

The W4-655A has the same nice low price tag, a nice x-max of 3mm, but it seems to roll-off quite steeply from 14kHz on and TangBand also gives up a useable frequency range of 70-14kHz, so I guess this driver isn't such a good idea without a tweeter?

Zaph doesn't seem to be impressed with the MarkAudio driver and says there are better drivers out there for less money, since there is another driver in my list that costs a little more and gets a better review from Zaph, I guess I can eliminate this one too.

That more expensive driver wich did get a good review from Zaph is the TangBand W4-1337 and I guess, if Zaph says it's useable without a tweeter (if you tame the top-end a bit, but I have an equalizer so that's no problem), it is really a good driver... bit it's the most expensive one of my selection...

I can't find a review from Zaph or other, know to me, reviewers about the W4-1320 but I did read some nice things about it while googleing, the frequency response looks acceptable and it has the same x-max and power handling of the 1337 at a cheaper price, but Zaph doesn't seem to like the 3" version of this driver, so I don't know if it's worth the try and save a little money, or if it's really worth it to spend a little more on the 1337's.

This rests me to the CSS... I found a review somewhere that stated the highs weren't very impressive, somewhere else I found a review from somebody who measured very different TS specs between 2 'identical' drivers and I've read more than once the suspension isn't really designed for the xmax of these thing. I don't need an x-max of 6mm anyway so maybe it's better to eliminate this one too.

So, out of the list I made, I'm doubting between the Tangband W4-1337 and the W4-1320, what do you guys think?
I'm also open for opinions about other drivers of the list I made, or drivers that aren't on my list (I can also buy Fostex speakers for example, but those have a way to low x-max for my needs).

greetings,
Isabelle
 

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This rests me to the CSS... I found a review somewhere that stated the highs weren't very impressive, somewhere else I found a review from somebody who measured very different TS specs between 2 'identical' drivers and I've read more than once the suspension isn't really designed for the xmax of these thing. I don't need an x-max of 6mm anyway so maybe it's better to eliminate this one too.
Under the right conditions, they perform pretty well. Here's a video a guy shot with them mounted open baffle on cardboard: diyAudio Forums Archive - CSS FR125 open baffle test (2mb film)

Their efficiency is poor so you're going to need some power. They aren't exactly "beautiful" sounding up top, but they have impressive linear range when used more on-axis (maybe 10k+?). The "FR" version tests flat out beyond 20k IIRC.

I had them in the house running them full range and they seemed to handle it ok, but I didn't beat on them or anything. Also tried them in my car and they did great as long as you keep them pointed at your head pretty much.

No experience with any of those other drivers you listed, but I'd add the HAT L4 is a pretty capable driver from 200-8k hz IME.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
This is how I would install the drivers:
I have grills in my dashboard that are ment for oem 'high frequency speakers' (very small fullrange drivers, I don't have those).
I'm thinking about making 2 rings the size of the drivers I'll use, aim those at my ears and make a fiberglass 'enclosure' behind them.
The bottom of the enclosures are the grills wich will stay open, so they'll vent into the dashboard.
To prevent reflections inside the enclosures, I'm thinking about filling them loosely with some synthetic wool (the grills will make it stay where it should be without preventing the enclosures to vent into the dashboard.

Good plan?

As for power, I'll use 2 channels of my Genesis Four Channel, official spec'd at 4x50W at 4 ohms, according to the birth sheet 4x85W at 4 ohms.

greetz,
Isabelle
 

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The only way you're going to get a good full range response out of a 4" driver is to aim them completely on-axis.

I've heard some that really like the Fostex full ranges in a car. Maybe take a look at some of those.

If the Tang Band offerings still appeal to you more, then fork out the extra cash for the 1337. You'll appreciate the titanium cone for the top end.

You're really pushing it asking for a 4" to cover that kind of bandwidth. A 3" driver might not have enough 'oomph' to meet up with your mini subs in the doors.

Nice project, and a challenging one. Good luck.
 

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i agree FR from a 4" is going to be quite tough. i can tell you that the peerless 3" can handle 200hz quite well with a steep crossover, i'd be much more inclined to use those.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Aiming the full range speakers on-axis shouldn't be a problem, the install will be focused on the drivers seat, not on both front seats so I'll aimn them both to me. I don't drive very often with passengers and most of them don't care too much about high-end sound quality, but I do and I'm the one that has to drive the car.

I've read good stuff about Fostex drivers, but it seems I can't buy one that fits my needs. These are the Fostex products I can buy: Loudspeakers • Fostex • BMM audio & electronics
In the 3-4.5" range, there's only one that has a decent x-max and that's the FW108N, but that one seems to roll-off quite badly in the highest octave and it's way over my budget, so I'm afraid Fostex aren't the drivers for me.

A 3" driver should make it easier to have good top-end response, but the only ones that have a big enough x-max (3-4mm) can give me the volume displacement I need to play low enough at the volume level that is needed. The 3" TangBands I can buy don't have enough x-max, neither do the Fostex's. The Omnes Audio doesn't spec it's x-max so unless somebody knows where I can find it, I can't risk those.
I've been looking at those Peerless 3" full-range speakers since I allready have some great stuff of them (XXLS subs, Exclusive mids, HDS tweeters, all great stuff) but with a sensitivity of only 85.5dB/2.83V/m (the inverted surround one, the other one is even worse at that point), an x-max of 2mm and a nasty peak around 11kHz, I'm affraid they just won't cut it "when the going gets tough".

The DLS's also have a quite low sensitivity (unless that 84dB is by 1W instead of 2.83V), they don't list the x-max wich is important if they need to go down to 200Hz being only 3", they also seem to roll-off steeply at the top octave, they seem to be ment to use with tweeters and knowing the price policy of DLS over here, they won't be cheap.

If there is really no way I can get what I want with full-range drivers, I might be willing to add a couple small tweeters for the top octave only, using a simple passive crossover and the necessary resistors to get the output level matching, but looking at the frequency response of the TangBand W4-1337 and W4-1320, it *is* possible to do it without that hassle.

I guess the 1337 seems to be the best option,
- it has the required volume displacement to get down to 200Hz or even a bit lower (always good to know there's some room left for playing with the crossover frequency)...
- ...without being too big (otherwise I could put my 5.5" Exclusives + HDS tweeters on the dash, but that's just too big),
- they have a powerhandling of 25W rated, 50W max, I'll be giving them 40-45W so I guess, combined with the sensitivity of 87dB/2.83V/m that should give me enough output without blowing them and...
- ...the response looks supersmooth with a top-end that should be easy to equalize and forgive me if they arent mounted dead-on-axis

I'm still open for suggestions, but for now, it seems I'm gonna have to spend a little more and buy those 1337's if I don't want this experiment to fail.

greetz,
Isabelle
 

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I'm still open for suggestions, but for now, it seems I'm gonna have to spend a little more and buy those 1337's if I don't want this experiment to fail.
Take a look at the Aura NS3 if you haven't already. They are inexpensive and have a ton of xmax.

Also I just got those same TB W6 subs in the mail yesterday so I'm interested in how they work out for you. I also have no trunk space to spare so I'm going to be doing something similar with mine.
 

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There is a driver out there that hasn't been mentioned yet and I think it deserves to be brought to light. The Dayton RS100-4. Parts Express:Dayton RS100-4 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm

Good response all the way up to 20k and enough x-max to play with. I'm about to buy a bunch of the 4ohm and 8ohm versions to play with. The only negative thing I've ever heard about them was about a response peak at 14k. If you can EQ that down a bit you will be golden. They're cheap too!
 

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Aiming the full range speakers on-axis shouldn't be a problem, the install will be focused on the drivers seat, not on both front seats so I'll aimn them both to me. I don't drive very often with passengers and most of them don't care too much about high-end sound quality, but I do and I'm the one that has to drive the car.

I've read good stuff about Fostex drivers, but it seems I can't buy one that fits my needs. These are the Fostex products I can buy: Loudspeakers • Fostex • BMM audio & electronics
In the 3-4.5" range, there's only one that has a decent x-max and that's the FW108N, but that one seems to roll-off quite badly in the highest octave and it's way over my budget, so I'm afraid Fostex aren't the drivers for me.

A 3" driver should make it easier to have good top-end response, but the only ones that have a big enough x-max (3-4mm) can give me the volume displacement I need to play low enough at the volume level that is needed. The 3" TangBands I can buy don't have enough x-max, neither do the Fostex's. The Omnes Audio doesn't spec it's x-max so unless somebody knows where I can find it, I can't risk those.
I've been looking at those Peerless 3" full-range speakers since I allready have some great stuff of them (XXLS subs, Exclusive mids, HDS tweeters, all great stuff) but with a sensitivity of only 85.5dB/2.83V/m (the inverted surround one, the other one is even worse at that point), an x-max of 2mm and a nasty peak around 11kHz, I'm affraid they just won't cut it "when the going gets tough".

The DLS's also have a quite low sensitivity (unless that 84dB is by 1W instead of 2.83V), they don't list the x-max wich is important if they need to go down to 200Hz being only 3", they also seem to roll-off steeply at the top octave, they seem to be ment to use with tweeters and knowing the price policy of DLS over here, they won't be cheap.

If there is really no way I can get what I want with full-range drivers, I might be willing to add a couple small tweeters for the top octave only, using a simple passive crossover and the necessary resistors to get the output level matching, but looking at the frequency response of the TangBand W4-1337 and W4-1320, it *is* possible to do it without that hassle.

I guess the 1337 seems to be the best option,
- it has the required volume displacement to get down to 200Hz or even a bit lower (always good to know there's some room left for playing with the crossover frequency)...
- ...without being too big (otherwise I could put my 5.5" Exclusives + HDS tweeters on the dash, but that's just too big),
- they have a powerhandling of 25W rated, 50W max, I'll be giving them 40-45W so I guess, combined with the sensitivity of 87dB/2.83V/m that should give me enough output without blowing them and...
- ...the response looks supersmooth with a top-end that should be easy to equalize and forgive me if they arent mounted dead-on-axis

I'm still open for suggestions, but for now, it seems I'm gonna have to spend a little more and buy those 1337's if I don't want this experiment to fail.

greetz,
Isabelle
Yeah, it's tough. I went with the 2" Peerless fullrange for a project and ended up using a tweeter with that as well, building a simple passive for that. However, I was also dealing with a breakup node. The 2" version's breakup node happens much higher than the 3", so you're pretty spot on with your assumptions about how the 3" version will perform.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/38490-more-tinkering-santa-fe.html#post444776

The RS100 has a peak as well in the 12-15khz range. Might be a bit tough. Knowing typical breakup nodes for RS series drivers, I'd avoid going higher than 10-12k with that driver.

That brings us back to the TB 1337. I'd say, give it a whirl, and if it doesn't cut it, then add the tweeter like you suggested. There are full range designs using that woofer.

Parts Express DIY Project
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
It's indeed a very cheap driver and I'm able to buy it over here in Belgium, but looking at the frequency response, I'm affraid the low price has it's reason. Apart from the peak at 14k, the rest of the frequency response also is quite ragged. It's also reviewed by Zaph and he seams to like the driver, but also recommends to use a tweeter with it and says it's a good driver for it's price...
That TangBand W4-1337 is also reviewed by him at the same page on his site and he seams to really like that one, also without a tweeter and since it's a lot more expensive than the Dayton, I guess that means it's worth the money, wich also shows in his 'Value' ranking.

greetz,
Isabelle
 

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What about an L4? Depending on the amount of power, I've had mine as low as 125Hz 12dB/Oct. with no problems. They'll do 17KHz on axis as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
According to the price-list of the only HAT dealer that I know of, the L4 costs 330 euros for a pair, the L3 costs 280 euros for a pair... not a bad price for a high-end car-audio brand, but way over my budget.

The budget I want to spend is maximum 150 euros (that what a pair of those TangBand W4-1337's would cost me).
*Maybe*, if there is a driver out there that is a *lot* better than that TangBand, I would be willing to spend 200 euros for a pair, but that's the absolute maximum and only for a driver that is so much better it makes the TangBand sound like crap...
Since Zaph reviewed the TangBand as being a very good driver that is actually able to play full-range (he recommends a tweeter with most full-range drivers, not with this one), I don't think there are a lot of drivers out there that would be worth 200 euros a pair to me, and probably, they would cost a lot more than 200 euros a pair...

greetz,
Isabelle
 

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According to the price-list of the only HAT dealer that I know of, the L4 costs 330 euros for a pair, the L3 costs 280 euros for a pair... not a bad price for a high-end car-audio brand, but way over my budget.

The budget I want to spend is maximum 150 euros (that what a pair of those TangBand W4-1337's would cost me).
*Maybe*, if there is a driver out there that is a *lot* better than that TangBand, I would be willing to spend 200 euros for a pair, but that's the absolute maximum and only for a driver that is so much better it makes the TangBand sound like crap...
Since Zaph reviewed the TangBand as being a very good driver that is actually able to play full-range (he recommends a tweeter with most full-range drivers, not with this one), I don't think there are a lot of drivers out there that would be worth 200 euros a pair to me, and probably, they would cost a lot more than 200 euros a pair...

greetz,
Isabelle
I'm selling my L4s... And for a whole lot less that 200 euros.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Both: I live in Belgium, Europe.
Shipping + taxes + import rights on stuff that comes from out of the European Union would drive the price up quite a lot. :(
 

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In a similar location in a VW Eurovan, I used Morel Integra 4's. 28mm SD uni-Q loaded in the voice coil of a 100mm mid with a 50mm coil and a slimline hybrid magnet. Sounded great. Ran them off front channels of an audison LRx 4.4 with a series cap.
 

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What about a pair of home theater-type KEF's? With the tweeter inside the woofer as a point-source?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
VP: I've heard those integra's in the past. They were in the dashboard of an Audi 80, combined with Morel mini-subs in the doors. It sounded fantastic, but I wouldn't know where to find Morel car-audio products anymore over here, since they've changed from main dealer a couple of times in the past few years and I don't even know if there *is* a main dealer of their car products at the moment...

fourthmeal: The stupid thing about those Kef's is that a complete system with 5 coaxial speakers and a passive subwoofer costs about 800 euros over here, but if you want 2 satellite speakers without the rest of the package, you pay almost 200 euro's a piece for it over here...


In the mean time, I've got some more information (T/S parameters, FR graph...) about the Hustler Audio X4's. They look quite good at the first sight but I don't think they are much different in quality than TangBand W4-1337SA's.
If I could buy them at a local dealer at the price you guys could buy them, I would have doubted seriously, but since there are no dealers over here and I have to pay taxes and import rights on everything I order outside the EU, even if I get a nice reduction on the normal price, I still have to pay quite a bit more than for those TB's and have a lot more paperwork to get them here.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with the TangBand W4-1337SA's, altough I hear more and more Zaph's tests on the MarkAudio Alpair6 are wrong and they are much better than Zaph says... Since they cost about the same as those TangBands, I'll wait a while before I make my decision and in the mean time, I'll try to find people that have experience with both...
 
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