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Are you doing headrest, moving mic or averaging?
 

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Don't waste your time with static mount
 
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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Flipping the phase to correct phase at a crossover or in one spot will throw the rest of the crossovers and timing right off sadly

You shouldn’t have to flip phase on mids unless you’ve connected one wrong
I've beat on this for two days, and after checking end-to-end continuity (twice) I am confident that the wiring is correct.
Nonetheless, no matter what I try I still have to flip the left mid for things to play nice.
As a last resort, I put a speaker clicker on all four drivers...

Right high - Up
Left high - Up
Right mid - Up
Left mid - Down(?!)

I'm guessing the push connectors got swapped at the factory.
Next time I pull the opposite side I'll see if the colors match.
At least it finally makes sense!

Back to tuning....
 

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I've beat on this for two days, and after checking end-to-end continuity (twice) I am confident that the wiring is correct.
Nonetheless, no matter what I try I still have to flip the left mid for things to play nice.
As a last resort, I put a speaker clicker on all four drivers...

Right high - Up
Left high - Up
Right mid - Up
Left mid - Down(?!)

I'm guessing the push connectors got swapped at the factory.
Next time I pull the opposite side I'll see if the colors match.
At least it finally makes sense!

Back to tuning....
Holy ****! That is crazy... Imagine you never checked it!
 

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2014 VW CC Sport
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I've beat on this for two days, and after checking end-to-end continuity (twice) I am confident that the wiring is correct.
Nonetheless, no matter what I try I still have to flip the left mid for things to play nice.
As a last resort, I put a speaker clicker on all four drivers...

Right high - Up
Left high - Up
Right mid - Up
Left mid - Down(?!)

I'm guessing the push connectors got swapped at the factory.
Next time I pull the opposite side I'll see if the colors match.
At least it finally makes sense!

Back to tuning....
Glad you found that out. What’s the overall response look like now?
With that wideband you have I would probably raise the hp to 400-500 A 2” playing down to around 200hz and under isn’t going to sound nice when you turn it up.

maybe raise it then show measurement of it over the individual target curve
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Glad you found that out. What’s the overall response look like now?
With that wideband you have I would probably raise the hp to 400-500 A 2” playing down to around 200hz and under isn’t going to sound nice when you turn it up.

maybe raise it then show measurement of it over the individual target curve
I need some advice.
What do you guys do when starting with a response like this:
Black Slope Font Line Parallel


My best result so far has been to pick a level below the lowest dip, and crush the surrounding peaks into submission.
The problem, aside from giving up tons of volume, is that no matter what I do, I end up with an enormous chasm in my response:
Human body Rectangle Slope Font Parallel


Since I'm only playing the left side, it's not cancellation, so I'm guessing this is just a big room mode at 100hz and 250hz.
I'm also guessing there's nothing I can do about it, save for relocating my mids, which ain't gonna happen.
I did slightly better using a ton of narrow filters, but the overall response was super jagged like a sawtooth.

So how do you approach this?
Just let it be and try to match it on the opposite side, or is there some wizardry that can improve the dip?
 

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Use a signal generator and run some test tones at the frequencies in question and then move/turn your head and you will hear the cancellation and/or doubling due to reflections and driver interaction at the offending frequencies. There's nothing you can do about these frequencies except move the driver(s) and that's often not feasible.
 

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you need to eq it otherwise it won't sound good, but you need to see if the left vs right phase response also matches over the complete range so they work together, lots off cars with door speakers have big phase swings in that range so you can just do eq but that won't fix it al..
 

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So are we saying he shouldn’t eq 100 or 250?
Not trying to speak for the corporate "we" but for me, it all depends on how much of it is cancellation vs summation or reflections, etc... if the big peaks are summation then you take some of that out but not as much as was done to rob the system of all of it's output, but if the big peaks are boundary or reflection then it's a matter of figuring out that happy medium between making minor cuts, major cuts or not at all. Same goes for the dips, so it's a matter of figuring out if that dip (or peak) is only at the one position or inherent to cancellation due to the distance between the drivers. All of this is why you do moving mic testing and/or multiple positions with averaging - that way you don't rob all the output to get one static position perfect and deal with the wonky acoustics OR figure out that happy medium between the two extremes. Much like the Time Alignment situation where if you align the Sub and Midbass at the Xover point and then run the midbass with No HP you end up with cancellation at other frequencies (better midbass at the expense of subbass.)

My system was 'detuned' (my word) so much (when I used the headrest method) that the Helix S/W had a hard time even doing an autotune cause there wasn't enough SPL to register without cranking the system up till the noise floor became a problem. Once I abandoned the headrest method and went to moving mic and multiple position averages in REW it was a revelation. My saved tunes were totally abandoned and started over - I keep one with NO EQ at all so I can continually go back and hear the raw drivers with only TA and phase adjustments (that I continue to tweak in a vain effort to make dome midranges work) and then a single seat tune (usually autotune that I then go back and tweak) and an average tune (plugged into REW and then manually done with slow sweeps) that's taken from measurements all over the front seating area. The single seat tune is by far the best imaging and staging (obviously) but the average tune is much more dynamic (fun if you will) and while commuting and daily use it is the one that I use the most (the average also works MUCH better when I have passengers - which seems like most of the time lately anyway) and the single seat tune is pretty much only used when I'm doing critical listening at home for testing and continual tuning to try and get a grasp on 2-way vs 3-way and the anomalies that continue to plague me with dome midranges.

All of this is extremely time consuming for me but the results are so enjoyable that I continue to plunge down the hole... too bad there's no such thing as an optically transparent acoustic absorber!
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Use a signal generator and run some test tones at the frequencies in question and then move/turn your head and you will hear the cancellation and/or doubling due to reflections and driver interaction at the offending frequencies. There's nothing you can do about these frequencies except move the driver(s) and that's often not feasible.
I'm still not positive whether I have two ginormous peaks (room mode/doubling?) at 100hz and 250hz or if I in fact have a huge cancellation at 175hz. I lean towards the former. Checking with test tones it should be obvious? Will try. In either case it doesn't sound like I have many options, but at least I'll have another data point and better understanding of my car's acoustics.
Going back to 'best practices': When starting with a big dip, do you use narrow filters around it in an effort to keep it from dipping more, or go for a smoother response overall via wider filters, accepting that the dip will become more pronounced?

Not trying to speak for the corporate "we" but for me, it all depends on how much of it is cancellation vs summation or reflections, etc... if the big peaks are summation then you take some of that out but not as much as was done to rob the system of all of it's output, but if the big peaks are boundary or reflection then it's a matter of figuring out that happy medium between making minor cuts, major cuts or not at all.
What is the difference between peaks due to summation vs peaks due to reflections? What is 'boundary' in this context?

My system was 'detuned' (my word) so much (when I used the headrest method) that the Helix S/W had a hard time even doing an autotune cause there wasn't enough SPL to register without cranking the system up till the noise floor became a problem. Once I abandoned the headrest method and went to moving mic and multiple position averages in REW it was a revelation. My saved tunes were totally abandoned and started over - I keep one with NO EQ at all so I can continually go back and hear the raw drivers with only TA and phase adjustments (that I continue to tweak in a vain effort to make dome midranges work) and then a single seat tune (usually autotune that I then go back and tweak) and an average tune (plugged into REW and then manually done with slow sweeps) that's taken from measurements all over the front seating area. The single seat tune is by far the best imaging and staging (obviously) but the average tune is much more dynamic (fun if you will) and while commuting and daily use it is the one that I use the most (the average also works MUCH better when I have passengers - which seems like most of the time lately anyway) and the single seat tune is pretty much only used when I'm doing critical listening at home for testing and continual tuning to try and get a grasp on 2-way vs 3-way and the anomalies that continue to plague me with dome midranges.
Are you using Autoset or TuneEQ? Can you describe your process/order of operations?

All of this is extremely time consuming for me but the results are so enjoyable that I continue to plunge down the hole... too bad there's no such thing as an optically transparent acoustic absorber!
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