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Discussion Starter #1
Hi. I come from the caraudio.com forum where great advice was given. Since there is a choice for going active now, I know its a strength of this community, so decided to chime in.

Preface:
At first I wanted to get some cheap components but it seems that lots of compromises were made that I wont be accepting.

Goal:
Decent simple SQ system. Got 4x100RMS channels to feed the speakers.

So:
So after good investigation and thinkering about here and that, decided to raise the budget and the last candidates were:

  • Morel Maximo components ($130).
  • HAT imagine comps going one step further ($250)
  • Going active ($230): Includes:
Getting a crossover (JBL GTX47 for $60) (sorry no HU changes now)
Mids: Probably Dayton RS180-4 (2 woofers=$100)
Highs: Various choices, around $70 for both​

Not running a competition system here. Just for my personal listening. I may well raise the volume on this or that but not too high.

I wish I could hear the systems I am interested in listening before buying the systems, but there is no way. Have to rely in other people´s experience and subjective listening. Advice appreciated!
 

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I'd go with the Imagines. I've been very frustrated in the past with trying to combine components seamlessly together when just picking and choosing them. Do you want to spend weeks tweaking or put stuff in that is proven to sound great?
 

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What vehicle & where do you plan to mount mid & tweeter? That JBL crossover looks like it might be fun to play around with. If you use the Dayton RS180 make sure you use a stout tweeter that can play down to 2k or even lower without issue, the RS180 begins to break-up past 2k. That crossover only has 12db slopes on all drivers besides the sub.
 

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I think that was mentioned before, but if you plan to place the woofer and tweeter far away from each other, then Imagines should be better because the woofer can play into much higher frequencies than the Dayton, if the above poster is right. Otherwise, the Dayton seems like a great driver that's popular with car and home audio alike. At some point, I want to get around to build some home speakers with Dayton drivers.
 

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I think that was mentioned before, but if you plan to place the woofer and tweeter far away from each other, then Imagines should be better because the woofer can play into much higher frequencies than the Daytons...
I don't get this logic. I believe that the furter apart the woofer and tweeter are, you would be inclined to crossover as low as the drivers would allow. This would reduce or eliminate beaming from a mid crossed over so high. I have eliminated tweeters from my current install to get the mid to high crossover point down in the 250 Hz range. This was accomplished by using a wide-band 3-inch instead of tweeter. This has improved my sound quite a bit, as I have the 3's mounted in dash locations (where the tweeters previously resided) and 7's in the doors.

On to the original question, I'd go w/the active setup. I've ran Hybrid Legatias in my last truck and RS-180's before I got the HAT's. The HAT's are probably the best drivers I've ever heard, but I ran them active, as I also ran the RS-180's w/Seas tweets. Once you go active, it opens up som many possibilties and tuning capabilities that I can't imagine using passive again, ever!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'd go with the Imagines. I've been very frustrated in the past with trying to combine components seamlessly together when just picking and choosing them. Do you want to spend weeks tweaking or put stuff in that is proven to sound great?
Thanks Sean. Right now its not really if its harder or not. Sound is one of the things I do for a living (producer-composer) so learning a bit more about speakers and crossovers its a joy for me. Its just about getting things sounding right. So I want to find whats the better choice SQ wise for the routes I posted.

What vehicle & where do you plan to mount mid & tweeter? That JBL crossover looks like it might be fun to play around with. If you use the Dayton RS180 make sure you use a stout tweeter that can play down to 2k or even lower without issue, the RS180 begins to break-up past 2k. That crossover only has 12db slopes on all drivers besides the sub.
They are going to be mounted in a ford explorer sport 1998, on the front doors. I´ve been doing a lot of thinkering as to where to place the tweet, but I am almost decided in placing it as close to the speaker as possible. Yes I know there are better locations as the pillars but I can not picture them placed there quite right. I will take pictures and post them.

I think that was mentioned before, but if you plan to place the woofer and tweeter far away from each other, then Imagines should be better because the woofer can play into much higher frequencies than the Dayton, if the above poster is right. Otherwise, the Dayton seems like a great driver that's popular with car and home audio alike. At some point, I want to get around to build some home speakers with Dayton drivers.
confused with this

I don't get this logic. I believe that the furter apart the woofer and tweeter are, you would be inclined to crossover as low as the drivers would allow. This would reduce or eliminate beaming from a mid crossed over so high. I have eliminated tweeters from my current install to get the mid to high crossover point down in the 250 Hz range. This was accomplished by using a wide-band 3-inch instead of tweeter. This has improved my sound quite a bit, as I have the 3's mounted in dash locations (where the tweeters previously resided) and 7's in the doors.

On to the original question, I'd go w/the active setup. I've ran Hybrid Legatias in my last truck and RS-180's before I got the HAT's. The HAT's are probably the best drivers I've ever heard, but I ran them active, as I also ran the RS-180's w/Seas tweets. Once you go active, it opens up som many possibilties and tuning capabilities that I can't imagine using passive again, ever!
still confused with the image thing. see ^^^
so you suggest getting the imagines and running them active right? hm that even raises the $$$ factor more up to the $300 range. have you heard the imagines? interesting to know how they stand to the daytons.
 

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I don't get this logic. I believe that the furter apart the woofer and tweeter are, you would be inclined to crossover as low as the drivers would allow. This would reduce or eliminate beaming from a mid crossed over so high. I have eliminated tweeters from my current install to get the mid to high crossover point down in the 250 Hz range. This was accomplished by using a wide-band 3-inch instead of tweeter. This has improved my sound quite a bit, as I have the 3's mounted in dash locations (where the tweeters previously resided) and 7's in the doors.

On to the original question, I'd go w/the active setup. I've ran Hybrid Legatias in my last truck and RS-180's before I got the HAT's. The HAT's are probably the best drivers I've ever heard, but I ran them active, as I also ran the RS-180's w/Seas tweets. Once you go active, it opens up som many possibilties and tuning capabilities that I can't imagine using passive again, ever!
It's the other way around. Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers

To the OP, just by a capacitor in order to mimic the one that comes with the Imagine set. Let the mid roll off on the top end and adjust the level (volume) for your tweeter. DONE!

Kelvin
 

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I don't get this logic. I believe that the furter apart the woofer and tweeter are, you would be inclined to crossover as low as the drivers would allow. This would reduce or eliminate beaming from a mid crossed over so high. I have eliminated tweeters from my current install to get the mid to high crossover point down in the 250 Hz range. This was accomplished by using a wide-band 3-inch instead of tweeter. This has improved my sound quite a bit, as I have the 3's mounted in dash locations (where the tweeters previously resided) and 7's in the doors.
I am referring to the normal 2-way setup, not 2-way with wideband. If the tweeter plays with authority at 2KHz or even below, it will split the mid-range between two drivers and there will be the possibility of human voices and other things wandering around between tweeter and woofer. In your case, that's not an issue because your wideband driver plays down to mid-bass frequency.
 

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It's the other way around. Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers

To the OP, just by a capacitor in order to mimic the one that comes with the Imagine set. Let the mid roll off on the top end and adjust the level (volume) for your tweeter. DONE!

Kelvin
If a driver beams it will draw attantion to itself. This is why unless your drivers are all perfectly on axis you should lowpass everything below beaming. This way the drivers that play up to the inaudible frequencies will be the only drivers your ears are getting solid image ques from. I understand where Buwalda is going with his crossover preferences but that's if the midranges are aimed properly. I also don't think people are telling the truth or are just deaf from the koolaid when they say his 6.5" drivers don't have any noticable beaming off axis crossed at 5khz. That's just not possible. Just calling like I see it.
 

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Reguardless of where the speaker beams, you'll still have problems crossing the tweeters into the vocal range if the tweeters arent mounted near the mids, as the op state he wants. Pick your poison. Problems with beaming, or problems with vocals/midrange shifting between multiple drivers.
 

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You can mostly fix that problem with time alignment. You can even put the midbass and sub on the dash with time alignment. I have my vocal range split with midbass at 1250 and wideband tweeters at 2khz and everything is on the dash.
 

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If a driver beams it will draw attantion to itself. This is why unless your drivers are all perfectly on axis you should lowpass everything below beaming. This way the drivers that play up to the inaudible frequencies will be the only drivers your ears are getting solid image ques from. I understand where Buwalda is going with his crossover preferences but that's if the midranges are aimed properly. I also don't think people are telling the truth or are just deaf from the koolaid when they say his 6.5" drivers don't have any noticable beaming off axis crossed at 5khz. That's just not possible. Just calling like I see it.
In order to achieve good sound you want either:
- wide dispersion in the passband (below beaming)
- some form of beaming (perfect angling of driver)
- DSP

I understand the point of crossing a driver below beaming however you still need to have both drivers next to each other. Sure you can bring everything into phase with T/A but it's not going to be in "perfect" phase. It will be great for 90% of music while the last 10% will reveal phase problems and Xover distorsion around the Xover point. <-- that's what I've noticed when using OEM placement and T/A.

With my Focals, I'm using beaming to my advantage. As one poster said, think of beaming as "a poor man's intensity alignment" - which works great for 2-seat tuning.

Kelvin
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Attached some pics. "location" describes what I want to do. No mods to stock panels wanted. Tweets and woofers are going to be real close here.
The other pics are some that I found rolling on the net just for checking how would they look if mounted in or near the A-pillars.
 

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I wonder, does the phase plug thingie on HAT Imagine speakers help at all to move the beaming frequency a little higher?

When I was installing my HAT speakers, with the door cover off, I decided to see whether its true that the midbasses can play 5-6KHz on their own. Since they were running passive, I had to cover the tweeter with my hand to try to isolate the woofer sound. Strangely, it seemed like the test tone sound got louder with the tweeter covered. I am not concerned with this artifact right now because these will go active soon. Either way, they sound pretty nice to me even running passive. The mid range and highs sound pretty nice to my ear.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
this beaming subject is an interesting one and surely have learned a lot from reads about that. also read the post by Scott Buwalda who explains clearly some ideas about staging there. Thanks to fish who suggested looking first as where to install.

The choice is made and the drivers are going to be close.

Having that in mind... HATs passive or Daytons active? Metanium suggested going HATs active, however that shoots out of my budget.
 

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I wonder, does the phase plug thingie on HAT Imagine speakers help at all to move the beaming frequency a little higher?

When I was installing my HAT speakers, with the door cover off, I decided to see whether its true that the midbasses can play 5-6KHz on their own. Since they were running passive, I had to cover the tweeter with my hand to try to isolate the woofer sound. Strangely, it seemed like the test tone sound got louder with the tweeter covered. I am not concerned with this artifact right now because these will go active soon. Either way, they sound pretty nice to me even running passive. The mid range and highs sound pretty nice to my ear.
Phase plug doesn't change @ which freq the driver is beaming...
Phase plug affects how the driver works off-axis...

Beaming doesn't change... Beaming is a function of cone size.

Very different aspect of sound reproduction.

Kelvin
 

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I really like the way the rs180 sounds as long as it's crossed below 2khz. It's pretty laid back and squeaky clean sounding. If something happened to both pairs of Souls I have and needed something to pair with my x2's the rs180 would be the one and only driver on the list. This driver isn't for everyone. It swings too far to the clinical side for a lot of people but those same people tend to favor paper drivers and their inherent thd that they have. I know for a fact that the rs180 and Vifa xt25 make an amazing combo. Only catch is you MUST aim the xt25's on axis because they disperse like lasers. You want that in the car though in my honest opinion. It's also something Nick Wingate from Focal told me years ago. You don't want a lot of smearing in the car.
 

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In all honesty, if the OP is going to install them in something other than a sealed enclosure, I highly recommend a driver other than the RS180. I heard a set installed in the sealed shaker 500 pods of a Mustang and they were decent.

I listened to them IB in another vehicle and was less than impressed with their underwhelming midbass response. Because I feel that midbass is more important in a car audio setup, I'd recommend looking elsewhere if you are planning on running the RS180s IB.
 

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They had plenty of midbass for my tastes installed IB. Maybe it's just that damned FLAT tune I like so much:p
 

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