[Kenneth M]

I'm going to have a myriad of class A power running in a somewhat confined space, so I've been doing a ton of research on keeping them cool. There's nothing more discouraging then the safety shutdown amidst a rock out session.

This is what I've been able to determine:
1) An army of fans is really the most researched and widely used.
2) A Peltier Plate system has condensation issues and ultimately generates more heat than the source.
3) Water cooling has come a long way in the last few years for overclockers, but one issue will cost you thousands of dollars in damage.
4) Heat Pipe cooling might be the best solution, but I've never seen it done.

Does anyone have experience with this? What are your thoughts and suggestions?

 

[Kenneth M]

Actually, after brainstorming a sec, a Peltier Plate could work, but it would have to be with an amplifier built in reverse (heatsink on mounting side).

 

[Kenneth M]

On the Peltier Plate model, it just occurred to me that there would be no need for any "Material that Transfers Temperature, but blocks condensation". There would be no condensation issues if it a temperature gauge were linked to the heatsink and adjusted the Peltier Plate's power output using fuzzy logic to keep the heatsink's temperature sustained in a controlled range.

 

[jode1967]

with a peltier, you have to get rid of the base heatload plus the heatload from the peltier itself.

 

[Fetus]

Demineralised/distilled water can have very low conductivity. It's what I use in my computer.

As far as the "blocking condensation" barrier for the peltier, condensation will only be a problem if the cold side is a lower temperature than the surrounding atmosphere. Amps can run pretty hot, so controlling the peltier to never cool below ambient temp could work. You would still be required to cool the hot side of the peltier, though. This means another large heat sink or water cooling, which sounds like more hassle than it's worth.

 

[syc0path]

Thinking in another direction, I wonder if something like the motor assembly from a mini-fridge could be adapted to provide a source of cool air. That cool air could then be distributed/exhausted by fans. Of course, it would consume a fair amount of space...

Going back to the water-cooling idea, I saw an install in Car Stereo Review where the guy used fittings that are used in dental offices to run antifreeze thru the amps' heatsinks. The fittings allow hoses to be disconnected without leaking. An amp manufacturer (I think it was Bazooka) stole the idea and put a line of amps called "CHIL".

 

[Victor_inox]

how hot your amps get?

 

[JoshHefnerX]

Give this a try. Mineral oil will transfer heat and not cause any problems w/ shorting as it's an insulator. You can pipe that warm mineral oil to an external radiator.

Custom PC; Mineral Oil Submerged Computer

 

[Kenneth M]

Really really appreciate everyone's input in here.

Jode & Fetus: The Peltier would work so freakin well if it could cool well enough with it being outside, yet cooling the amps inside. No fans needed inside. No water mess. Etc. But you guys are right, it would need to be mated to a heatsink and fans outside, and I don't have enough room between my back wall and bed of my truck for all that. So that idea is getting scrapped.

Hefner: The oil submersion is wild. Realllllllly freakin cool, but if I were to jump some railroad tracks in my Raptor (really hard to resist not to), I'd earn the nickname "The Anointed One" pretty quickly. Rowdy concept and my guess is that this will be much more widely accepted as time goes on and technological responsiveness increases....

Syc0path: I considered a/c, but the compressor would have to be outside (noisy) and if I'm going to get that complicated, I'm going to go with water since it has 5x the cooling ability.

Victor: This is a work in progress. Nothing is installed. My experience with Class A amps is that they get hot. Really f'n hot. I'm not going to install the amps and deal with the problem; I'll deal with the problem and install the amps.


syc0path & everyone else: I'll be running water cooled. I will have custom heat sink/radiator's machined for my particular amplifiers, I'll run them through a tranny cooler below the truck's radiator, ran by an electric water pump. I will have temperature gauges before and after amplification to be able to check differentiation on gauges built in my driver's pillar. It's going to take some engineering, but it can be done. I'll post up a thread when there's something to show.

Really appreciate everyone's help and insight. Invaluable as ever!

 

[captainobvious]

First, why would you want to run all straight class A amps in an auto environment? You're dealing with the lowest efficiency topology on a limited electrical system. You have to worry about all that inefficiency generating heat, and then worry about the heat causing failure. There are a plethora of outstanding class B, G/H and D amplifiers already proven to be stellar performers and more suitable for the automotive environment.

That aside, if you're going to run class A amps, don't cover them and keep them exposed to fresh, circulating air. Fans are a simple and reliable method of doing the job without adding even more risk with something like water cooling. If the amps must be covered, use plenty of fans in a push-pull configuration blowing air over the heatsinks. It will be even more effective if you're pulling air from a cool location rather then simply recirculating.

 

[Victor_inox]

what is amount or energy you need dissipated? I bet there is nowhere close to require liquid heat exchanger. fans would be sufficient. Vacuum tubes can get easily to 350F but I haven`t seen a single instance when fans wouldn't be enough to cool them down.
even most powerful TV stations radio frequency broadcast amplifiers. And I`m talking kilowatts of power. Or stacks of servers ..... water cooling much more efficient but using it in other than overclocked CPU and Graphic cards not technically required. There is always coolness factor though...

 

[Kenneth M]

Wuddup bros?

Sure, I can explain.

I am an extremist with most things in my life. At work I am the best. At home I play the hardest. I take the most chances (adrenaline provoking hobbies) and when I start a project, I tend to go all-out. I am a bit mental in that capacity. I try not to stay inside a box.

There are some things I do not contribute this mantra though however. Women: I keep them wanting more. House: More house = More lifelong debt (property taxes) Etc. So there are instances where I apply limitations.

Don't get me wrong, I have thought it much easier, and $10's of thousands of dollars less to go the D route. But the passion for car audio that has been instilled in me since the 90's makes me want to try and build one of the best sq quality daily drivers possible.

I know it doesn't make since to you, for me to chase that extra 2% of sound quality. And that's totally cool with me. But here's the deal: if I don't do it, I will always wonder.

You ever see that girl that you didn't have the courage to talk to, yet she randomly pops up in your mind from time to time, and you wish you had? It's happened to me. But after a few times, I said never again. Last time I saw who I thought was "the one" I had a relationship of nightmarish proportions combined with some of the greatest times in my life. I can't begin to start with all the times I almost highsided a sportbike to possible death and I don't think it's cool. In fact it's painful just to think about. What I will say is that I'm not here sitting in my home wondering what things would be like. I just kick down PR's and find my identity, self-worth and snowballing manifestation of courage by pushing the edge.

Am I frightened by the colossal investment that will take me an extremely long time to reach my goal? Yes. Am I uncertain of the possible outcome? Yes. Do I have insecurities about this project? Heckyeah! But I'm going to do the best I can to fulfill my vision. And whether or not it works out, or what people think, is irrelevant. Because I know the feeling at the end of the road. It defines me.

Going back to the original questions, truck is a Raptor and the only places I have room for amps is the back wall and possibly under the front seats. Both are tight spaces. And being that I don't have a trunk to work with, the oven will be inside the cab.

Fans create noise. Enough air movement and it could affect sound. And I don't like the idea of fighting temperature variations on a scale that large. (4 class A's, 2 class A/B's).

Dental office fittings brought up by syc0path is a most excellent idea. I could even just route the lines outside to the battery box underneath the bed and have a fan cooled radiator mounted there.

Major hurdle is to have some heatsinks created with a copper tube winding through it.. Or maybe have some heatsink radiator type things made that just slide into the existing heatsinks like a puzzle piece mating it together. Actually, that might be easier..... Maybe use thermal paste between the two? The possibilities are numerous!!

 

[Victor_inox]

Fans create noise? You certainly haven't heard new fans. 9DB fans is not unheard off.
It`s your truck and most certainly your time and money you can waste it any way you pleased. Process is definitely more important than goal, enjoy!

 

[Jesus Christ]

First, why would you want to run all straight class A amps in an auto environment? You're dealing with the lowest efficiency topology on a limited electrical system. You have to worry about all that inefficiency generating heat, and then worry about the heat causing failure. There are a plethora of outstanding class B, G/H and D amplifiers already proven to be stellar performers and more suitable for the automotive environment.

That aside, if you're going to run class A amps, don't cover them and keep them exposed to fresh, circulating air. Fans are a simple and reliable method of doing the job without adding even more risk with something like water cooling. If the amps must be covered, use plenty of fans in a push-pull configuration blowing air over the heatsinks. It will be even more effective if you're pulling air from a cool location rather then simply recirculating.

It's ok, this was discussed in another thread, they aren't really class a.

 

[gijoe]

I have to agree with captainobvious.

Kenneth, there are times when people get bragging rights for creating something that is better than the competition. There are other times where people get bragging rights for spending more time on the project than the competition. Your plan seems interesting, but your bragging rights will only be justified by having a project that you spent a lot of unnecessary time on, not that your project has resulted in a better overall product.

You are being wasteful and silly, just to create a product because you can. And you know what? That's pretty ****ing cool. But, you're kidding yourself if you think that trying to liquid cool a bunch of class A amps in a mobile environment is going to give you a better system than the efficient class D's winning SQ competitions.

 

[Kenneth M]

Fans create noise? You certainly haven't heard new fans. 9DB fans is not unheard off.
It`s your truck and most certainly your time and money you can waste it any way you pleased. Process is definitely more important than goal, enjoy!

"Waste" is subjective.

To me, "wasting" is when you spend the gas money to go on a blind date at Starbucks that your best friend set you up on, to find the fattest six-hundred thousand pound female get up and introduce herself.

"Wasting" to me, is when you spend $400 on a purse for your chick, have the department store gift wrap it, then six days later she opens it and find a ball cap and t-shirt.

To me, wasteful is spending all of your allowance on a badass action figure when you're a kid, only to find that stupid micro-portal that no one can find ate their weapons again, dammit!

It's ok, this was discussed in another thread, they aren't really class a.

Yeah, I know. I'm just not going to cite it every time I write it.

I have to agree with captainobvious.

Kenneth, there are times when people get bragging rights for creating something that is better than the competition. There are other times where people get bragging rights for spending more time on the project than the competition. Your plan seems interesting, but your bragging rights will only be justified by having a project that you spent a lot of unnecessary time on, not that your project has resulted in a better overall product.

You are being wasteful and silly, just to create a product because you can. And you know what? That's pretty ****ing cool. But, you're kidding yourself if you think that trying to liquid cool a bunch of class A amps in a mobile environment is going to give you a better system than the efficient class D's winning SQ competitions.

See my post to Victor about wasteful. It's pretty silly too.

The rest of your post is nonsense. I never claimed to pursue this for bragging rights. And the class D's winning competitions are not going against inefficient liquid cooled class A's, either.

P.S. I played with you as a kid. I set you on fire once and stuck you under my Dad's tire so he would back over you on his way to work. I hope you're not still mad at me.

 

[Jesus Christ]

Yeah, I know. I'm just not going to cite it every time I write it.

If you know they're not class a then why keep calling them class a?

 

[gijoe]

"Waste" is subjective.

To me, "wasting" is when you spend the gas money to go on a blind date at Starbucks that your best friend set you up on, to find the fattest six-hundred thousand pound female get up and introduce herself.

"Wasting" to me, is when you spend $400 on a purse for your chick, have the department store gift wrap it, then six days later she opens it and find a ball cap and t-shirt.

To me, wasteful is spending all of your allowance on a badass action figure when you're a kid, only to find that stupid micro-portal that no one can find ate their weapons again, dammit!



Yeah, I know. I'm just not going to cite it every time I write it.



See my post to Victor about wasteful. It's pretty silly too.

The rest of your post is nonsense. I never claimed to pursue this for bragging rights. And the class D's winning competitions are not going against inefficient liquid cooled class A's, either.

P.S. I played with you as a kid. I set you on fire once and stuck you under my Dad's tire so he would back over you on his way to work. I hope you're not still mad at me.

If it's not for bragging rights, what's it for? Fun? Doing something simply for fun is completely fine, I'm just trying to figure out why you want to over engineer something so badly. If consumer products were over engineered to this level none of them would ever turn a profit. I'm honestly trying to figure out why you want to do this because it's not going to give you a better sounding system.

 

[captainobvious]

Kenneth- I hope you didn't take my post as having any negative connotation, as that wasn't my intention. I appreciate the thorough response too.

First- have you already purchased said amplifiers? If so, then there's probably no point in what will follow, but here goes...

I would HIGHLY recommend doing some blind comparisons of amplifiers first to see IF you can hear any difference between the class A/B amplifiers and the other choices. I ran some tests for a small group, and experienced first hand myself as well so I feel I have at least a little more to add than the average Joe. In my humble opinion (based on actual blind comparison testing, done properly), selecting amplifiers based on their "sound", especially in a car audio environment, is futile.
I'm not telling you to stay away from any particular amplifier(s) or to steer you toward anything else. What I will offer is this: The most important factors to consider when purchasing amplifiers are the following (in no particular order)

-Power output
-Reliability
-Size/form factor
-Featureset
-Price
-Aesthetics
-Manufacturer Support/Warranty

Honestly, the amplifiers are one of the lowest things on the totem pole to even begin considering if your goal is a badass sounding system. The vast majority of the resources of time and money are SOOOO much better spent on investigating the acoustic characteristics of your vehicle, installing your speakers in the best possible locations to work well within that environment and then tuning with dsp to extract every ounce of performance you can out of it. Installation and tuning are bar none the most important aspects to a system. After that, I'd probably say speaker selection is the next most crucial aspect. Between those 3, you can spend a boatload of time and money and they will make 98% of the impact on how your system will perform vs everything else (including amplifiers) making up the other 2%.

Basically what I'm saying is to learn from my wasted time and experience and start right at the point that really matters. It will result in a much more rewarding result for you and you'll learn more focusing on those aspects of building a car audio system as well.


Bets of luck in your pursuit!

 

[Kenneth M]

Cap'n & GIJoe - I appreciate the follow up responses.

End goal is a warm, yet articulate, yet non-fatiguing sound.

I've had a clinical sounding system before and I will go to any and all lengths to ensure that I do not have another one. So I my amplifier design has been studied and I've come to the conclusion that sinfoni class A's are my best bet for running mid-bass, midranges, and tweeters.

I did consider class D, namely JLHD's because of the light weight, small footprint, cool operation, and low consumption. I also have a dealer that I've dealt with for 20 years that can sell them to me close to cost. Problem is they tend to sound clinical.

I also considered the middle entry Sinfoni Grave which I believe is D, but there's just not enough info on whether or not it produces the sound I want.

Most other brands I've looked at are too large to have on my back wall, and all class A's with warm characteristics are not designed for tight spaces.

So my recourse is figuring out a way to cool class A Sinfoni's in a tight space. I have a McIntosh home amplifier left on in a cabinet overnight develop issues. It has gone to the shop twice now. So I know how overheating can affect amplifiers, and I'm willing to research and implement the requirements to keep it from happening again. (As you can see, lol)


But no, the amps for this project have not been purchased yet. The speakers were first on the list, and I've got 6 of those with the last 4 being built over the next 4-6 months. Amplifiers are next, with the dsp and Bewith hu being last. Mainly because dsp tech keeps evolving so rapidly that waiting until the last minute would probably be most beneficial, and the Bewith rear view mirror hu was supposed to run FLAC, but they changed it not to and I'm waiting to see if they eventually upgrade it back to the FLAC stats they published prior to release.