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Discussion Starter #21
Any SMAART experts here know how functional the demo is? Does it enable you to tune your car better rather than just evaluate the software?
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Oh and here's the link and summary care of Jimmydee

Helix has updated their DSP software, and released it today...

Can be downloaded here: DSP PC-Tool Version 4

Version 4.70
  • New start launcher has been added - the start window now offers a device info area as well as a new menu bar which gives access to several frequently used functions. The new buttons are offering the following functions (from top to bottom): Refresh connection, Options menu (manual ACO Update, manual driver installation, etc.), Connection switch (WIFI/USB), Change-Log history, keyboard shortcuts map, sound files for the integrated measurement systems, website link
  • Main - Advanced Import function has been implemented to import AFPX and REW files. The Advanced Import manager offers various adjustments as well as visualizes the importing data. By selecting the file type you can choose to import REW (.txt) or DSP PC-Tool tuning files (.afpx)
  • Main - The Output level graph has been reworked and now shows the outgoing level as RMS and Peak Hold value. The light blue bar will show the RMS value whereas the dark blue bar will show the Peak Hold value. The new Peak Hold value will show the highest output level within a 2 second time window. This will make it much easier to adjust the gain structure properly as it allows to get easier to the maximum unclipped output level. In addition the digit value beside the bar can be toggled between RMS and Peak Hold value by clicking on the small symbols on the right in the digit display.
  • Main - The ACO configuration will now also be stored directly when teh SAVE button has been used. After daving the unit can be directly disconnected from power and an additional power cycleis not needed anymore.
  • ISA - The Input Signal Analyzer got a new measurement option to measure low frequency high pass filters from factory sound systems between 25 Hz and 200 Hz. The new measurement range can be selected via the drop down menu in the ISA window and is called "Low - 25 Hz to 200 Hz".
  • ATM - The official public beta version of "Automatic Time Measurement" has been added. This is a completely new algorythm and function which allows the user to fully automatically set up the time alignment in a car for all speaker channels indepentend if these are active or passive speaker systems. The new function can be accessed by pressing "SHIFT" + "t" in any window. To use the function name ALL inputs and outputs correctly, make sure that a fullrange stereo signal is routed to analog input channels "A & B" or in case of VCP to Virtual Channels "Front Left" and "Front Right" and play the ATM test track from the SoundFiles folder. The microphone needs to be mounted in a fixed position at the the centered head position e.g. mounting the mic to the headrest facing upwords or in a 45° angle to the inner roof. At last make sure that the measurement volume is in the green/good marked area of the microphone level bar and click on the "Start" button. If necessary it is possible to select/unselect specific channels in the table of the new window.
  • BRAX DSP DiSAC volume control - New Gain-Offset options have been added for the BRAX DSPs DiSAC protocol have been added to allow a higher analog Gain inside the MX4 PRO by adding a gain offset to the analog signal domain. The option can be found in the BRAX DSP module configuration menu under the "DiSAC Volume Control" drop down menu. Beside the standard option with 0 dB new options with + 3dB, + 6dB and +9dB are available now. The adjustment can be individually configured for each output module.
  • ACO Updater - A new advanced ACO update program has been implemented which improves the update stability on slower computers
  • File manager - The default load and save directory has been changed to the 'User'/Documents directoy
  • Bugfixes - Loading an afpx file into a device which has VCP enabled will now display all Input and Output names on all menus correctly.
  • HELIX V EIGHT DSP MK2 - a bug has been fixed which caused all amplified channels to be reversed in polarity. After updating the software it might be necessary to check the polarity settings for the line outputs as these might need to be readjusted to match the correct polarity of the amplifier channels.
  • HELIX V EIGHT DSP MK2 - Line output channels I & J we reversed and are now correctly assigned
  • HELIX V TWELVE DSP - Class GD amplifier power supply control algorithm has been optimized
  • HELIX V TWELVE DSP - fixed a bug in the "ACO Features - ADEP.3 configuration"
  • HELIX DSP.3 - fixed a bug which could cause the InputEQ on input channel F to not work properly
  • MATCH PP 62DSP - Subwoofer output channel names have been renamed to properly work with the new ATM function
  • General - The internal memory slot 2 which gets deactivated in non-ACO products if a DIRECTOR is connected, got now properly renamed to visualize the reason for the deactivation.
  • General - ADEP.3 configuration set by default to "2 seconds"
 

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Not only 3 months but 3 months a few times, it seems!
No... it means if you have a 1 month trial you can now extend it by 3 months... not get it free for life or no one would buy it 🙈

you can perhaps download a second time with a different email address, but any information from the first install will be lost 😉
 

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Any SMAART experts here know how functional the demo is? Does it enable you to tune your car better rather than just evaluate the software?
Yes but it counts on your install being perfect, you can’t out tune a bad install... if speakers sound presents to your brain as being elsewhere from the speaker itself due to reflections you still won’t get a centre image in the centre with levels matched

for example a tweeter on the passenger side aimed on axis will give a massive amount of reflected energy from the drivers side window, due to the brain working out the location of a sound source from two ears of the drivers side ear gets lots of extra informantion the direction of the sound to the brain will be away from the speaker towards the drivers side by some amount

if you take phase and time information and set time alignment it will then average all the information at a single point and may very well time align for the direct sound and reflected also, this is not nesc the same as your brain hears and may be worse or better as there’s no head in the way

it’s very possible that when you set it by phase and time your brain may still perceive it differently

you need to position and aim your drivers so they sound like point sources and not spread images

every time I see mids and tweeters aimed across the cabin it makes me cringe... as the guys who have them like that are happy in there bubble, but anyone with more trained gearing will likely be able to pick fault with the sound... and it’s one of those things... once you’ve heard it and know how to listen you then become a better tuner, but also less tolerant of audio hiccups shall we say 👍🏼

once you do that and set drivers with smaart you will then get audio nirvana

but no one should kid themselves that smaart will sort a crappy installation (sometimes if using factory positions it’s unavoidable getting reflections... in that case it’s compromised from the start so it’s make the best of a bad job)

perhaps the easiest way to hear this is to play a sine wave generator pr slow sine sweep on your phone with a single speaker playing and allow it to play from one end of the frequency spectrum to the other... you will hear the sound move as you sit with your eyes shut in the main listening position

As I say once you’ve heard it happen you then listen for it and hear it

Kind of like the clock you have in your house you don’t hear ticking unless someone points it out... then you can’t help but hear it
 

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I mean yeah, in a perfect world, we'd all have limitless time and money and be able to rebuild our cars around our speakers for "perfect" placement and aim. However, back in the real world, a lot of us (me included!) just want to make the best of what we have - with factory speaker locations. We can easily upgrade the speakers themselves, add amps, DSPs, etc, but speaker placement and aim "is what it is" for some people. I completely understand that it will never be "perfect", but I'd still like to make the most of it.

Can Smaart (or more specifically, the Smaart Demo) help me do that with factory speaker locations? Will it likely give me better results than not using it at all and/or correct phase as much as you can "blindly"?

I think that is what we're trying to understand.
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Yes but it counts on your install being perfect, you can’t out tune a bad install... if speakers sound presents to your brain as being elsewhere from the speaker itself due to reflections you still won’t get a centre image in the centre with levels matched

for example a tweeter on the passenger side aimed on axis will give a massive amount of reflected energy from the drivers side window, due to the brain working out the location of a sound source from two ears of the drivers side ear gets lots of extra informantion the direction of the sound to the brain will be away from the speaker towards the drivers side by some amount

if you take phase and time information and set time alignment it will then average all the information at a single point and may very well time align for the direct sound and reflected also, this is not nesc the same as your brain hears and may be worse or better as there’s no head in the way

it’s very possible that when you set it by phase and time your brain may still perceive it differently

you need to position and aim your drivers so they sound like point sources and not spread images

every time I see mids and tweeters aimed across the cabin it makes me cringe... as the guys who have them like that are happy in there bubble, but anyone with more trained gearing will likely be able to pick fault with the sound... and it’s one of those things... once you’ve heard it and know how to listen you then become a better tuner, but also less tolerant of audio hiccups shall we say 👍🏼

once you do that and set drivers with smaart you will then get audio nirvana

but no one should kid themselves that smaart will sort a crappy installation (sometimes if using factory positions it’s unavoidable getting reflections... in that case it’s compromised from the start so it’s make the best of a bad job)

perhaps the easiest way to hear this is to play a sine wave generator pr slow sine sweep on your phone with a single speaker playing and allow it to play from one end of the frequency spectrum to the other... you will hear the sound move as you sit with your eyes shut in the main listening position

As I say once you’ve heard it happen you then listen for it and hear it

Kind of like the clock you have in your house you don’t hear ticking unless someone points it out... then you can’t help but hear it
@dumdum any thoughts on this? I'm reading the other new software thread and timing and phase discussion. If I'm going to move drivers i want to get it right...

I already knew and understood everything you just said dumdum. But I bought decent gear that i loved the sound of like I was deciding on home equipment. And decided i needed a stealth install in factory positions. So I handed over my Hertz Mille legend 1650.3 splits for the front stage and then I just forgot about everything you said in your post that I knew and trusted my installer. Now i expect my installer angled the drivers as best he could but i paid no attention to the dispersion stats of the drivers and had no conversations about the angles of the drivers. I trust that they did the best job they could but ive been making a list of questions and this has just added some to the list. Ive got the USB HEC module, wifi controller and a URC.3 just arrived from germany and i can have those conversations when i get that stuff put in. Ill tweak anything i can or need to once ive had that done.

I'm also questioning if I really needed the mille legend 165.3s for the rear, which are there for rear passengers on long trips, like 1000km+ long, and rear fill. Given the poor mounting options in the rear, basically flat door panels, the 165.3 splits might not have given me many advantages over decent coaxials and saved me money. But I did get all my Hertz gear at just over half price so that's probably not such an issue. At least in terms of tonal accuracy and musicality they match the rest of the system rather than degrade it.

I have an alarm now and am making space to park the car locked up rather than out the front of the house. Once I've switched to an insurance company that is willing to cover a car to an agreed value where the hifi gear and dyna sound/heat deadening materials, alarm, tinting plus installation is worth about the same as the car I'll feel a little more comfortable. Then once my bank balance recovers if I can buy/fabricate some tweeter/mid pods I'll buy the mids that match my splits, the hertz mille ML700.3, and mount the front stage tweeters and mids in the corner of the dash, windscreen and front pillar, get a better geometry for my sound stage and maybe go active. Although I've already got three 7.5kg stereo amps at 330 rms per channel into 4 ohms and if I go active ill need more amp channels but I certainly don't need any more power.

It could be that my tweeters are in a great position already. they are at the front bottom corner of the front windows and behind a grille and I can't see what angle they are at without taking the grille off, or maybe shining a torch into it, but it seems to at least be somewhere near 45 deg backwards at a guess, not directly at the opposite window. So hopefully it's ruining my rear passengers sound stage not mine :)

But to not even think about the mounting angles and dispersion pattern is a beginner's mistake. But I guess this is a beginner fit-out for me. I've never done car audio properly before.It's always been an alpine deck and front speaker upgrade in factory position, no component amp and drive around with the fader all the way forward.

And people worry so much about subs. I gotta say my splits go to 40 Hz, when I switch the subs off I almost feel I could live without them, and getting the front stage right is so much more important than whether you go to 40 or 20 hertz. Hell most recorded music wouldn't go below 40 Hz and the organ music, doof doof and electronica that might really isn't my usual listening.
 

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I was just joking but measuring with my umik I couldn't get repeatable results. Well I guess that's not true it consistently reported all of my speakers is requiring 0 milliseconds of delay and set all of my speakers to the same distance as the reference driver. It did this five times in a row in pure silence. Is anyone getting better results. The results I'm getting are no more accurate than using an audio reference in r e w in other words complete garbage information

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
I just installed DSP PC tool v4.72a and got the same exact results as you using the UMIK-1. (cal.txt file was updated to 90 degree UMIK-1 data prior)

At first, the ATM would only set all my speakers to same value as the reference speaker (35 inches) and the test tone seemed to be playing out of all speakers simultaneously during measurement.

So I finally did a complete reset of my V twelve DSP and the test tone now correctly alternates from the reference speaker to each individual speaker.

The ATM always ends successfully, but most channels still end up with 0 distance. (I always make sure the green input level at 50%)

Performing a re-measurement seems to do nothing and selected speakers get deselected when the re-measurement starts.

One other issue I noticed is the ATM interface will omit or hide some channels based what label (name) you give them.

(channels with duplicate names are not displayed and the ATM randomly decides which duplicate it shows.)

I have rear surrounds and also rear door speakers. Both sets were label "Rear L Full" and "Rear R Full", but the ATM will only show one set.

280557


Even if I re-label both rear surrounds to "Rear Fill Full", only one "Rear Fill Full" channel displays in the ATM.

280558


My only solution is to use labels "Rear L Mid" and "Rear R Mid" for the surrounds.

Questions:

Are you supposed to set all channels (including the reference) to 0 in Time, BEFORE starting each measurement?

What happens if the reference channel distance in Time and the distance in the ATM don't match? Nothing?

Do we need to mute any channels not being measured or are they simply skipped during measurement if not checked?

Can you measure or remeasure single speakers or just certain sets without affecting others?

Why aren't there LEFT and RIGHT labels for the FILL options in IO?

Also, I really hope I don't need to do a full reset each time the DSP Software is updated.

That would suck.:confused:
 

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Got it to work.

I noticed that I had two calibration .txt files in my \ATF DSP PC-Tool 4.72a folder (cal.txt and cal - Copy.txt) and removed the "copy" file.

I then went to the car, booted up my laptop, software and performed another set of measurements.

(I also made sure to un-link all channels, as suggested by tjk_bail)

After a few failed measurements (increasing input levels just before red), it worked.

The distances look and sound reasonable.
 

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they need to change how the helix saves/loads files. The whole saving process is off. Sometimes when renaming soon as you hit save it reverts back to a damn random number like M- 1 of slot 1 or m-7 slot 7 etc. if you copy tune in slot 1 to say slot 6 then rename it and click save even with the little red box Unchecked it will revert to a M-6.
Can anyone provide a link to the proper way to save or how it works?

let’s say I started with nothing inany slots. I made a tune on slot 1 Named it no sub eq applied Then copied to slot 2 and named with sub eq Then I go to save it. Does a saved file contain every tune in every slot?

Another example What if I tuned 6 different tunes and saved it.
Then I tuned 3 more and saved it.
Would one file load 6 and the other file load 9?
 
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they need to change how the helix saves/loads files. The whole saving process is off. Sometimes when renaming soon as you hit save it reverts back to a damn random number like M- 1 of slot 1 or m-7 slot 7 etc. if you copy tune in slot 1 to say slot 6 then rename it and click save even with the little red box Unchecked it will revert to a M-6.
Can anyone provide a link to the proper way to save or how it works?

let’s say I started with nothing inany slots. I made a tune on slot 1 Named it no sub eq applied Then copied to slot 2 and named with sub eq Then I go to save it. Does a saved file contain every tune in every slot?

Another example What if I tuned 6 different tunes and saved it.
Then I tuned 3 more and saved it.
Would one file load 6 and the other file load 9?

I agree it's confusing.

I thought each saved file only contains information for one config slot, but seems to retain the labels for every slot when it was last saved.

I might be wrong and have been saving the same 6 configs to different slot named files all this time?? :(:rolleyes:

They need to clearly differentiate between filled slots, saved files and the 10 internal memory positions of the device.

I also noticed the software is now making me select from preset 1-10 whenever I connect to my V Twelve DSP via USB.

Shouldn't it just automatically pull up the last loaded preset from the device memory and remember it's position and name? I just want to continue with the last config I was working on from the device.

Also, when I hit save and store why do I need to select a file name again and again?

If I have "Tune 1" loaded and previously saved to a file called "Tune 1.afpx", just save it again to "Tune 1.afpx", don't ask me to select a file again.

I did just notice this option hiding at the top. :) Is this the "red box" you speak of?

280772
 

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Yes that’s the red box I just emailed them asking for detailed explanation on the save process and anything related to it.

i asked them if in the next software update to place each channels box in the eq sextion
Next to the damn channel it’s with Right now the
check Box is next to the next channel.
I don’t have a box icon so use # as the box for example
It’s now
channel 1 # channel 2 #
I would prefer it
Channel 1# Channel 2#

The way it is now it’s way too easy to link the wrong channels and mess it all up.
 
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Yes that’s the red box I just emailed them asking for detailed explanation on the save process and anything related to it.

i asked them if in the next software update to place each channels box in the eq sextion
Next to the damn channel it’s with Right now the
check Box is next to the next channel.
I don’t have a box icon so use # as the box for example
It’s now
channel 1 # channel 2 #
I would prefer it
Channel 1# Channel 2#

The way it is now it’s way too easy to link the wrong channels and mess it all up.
Yes, I've accidentally linked the wrong channels before. I also can't see the last subwoofer channel N on my laptop unless I scroll.

I also just noticed that if I open the DSP software, make EQ tweaks, then close the DSP software (saying NO to saving changes), the AMP still keeps my EQ changes with the DSP software closed. :confused::unsure:

IF I say NO to saving changes, the AMP should immediately revert back to last saved point and discard any unsaved changes.

Otherwise, when the AMP finally turns OFF any unsaved tweaks (still present), would now disappear and you will wonder why the audio changed.
 

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I just now opened slot 1 just to lower the output gain and have the Red box checked and it still changed the good damn name to M1-17102020-2147 I’m really getting sick of this ****. This is ********! 😡
 

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FYI : software update issue still...
I have a thread I was asking about ground corrosion. I thought it was causing my engine noise. I reverted back to 4.65a software and there is ZERO noise. Anything after 4.65 causes engine noise.
 

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Did you do this ? It’s was posted in another thread by dobslob. Worked for me. I saw you were in that thread

 

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Did you do this ? It’s was posted in another thread by dobslob. Worked for me. I saw you were in that thread

nope. My system has been hooked up over a year now with no changes Recently got engine noise and figured out it was from the software update even though I read they fixed this issue. I had it bad with the beta version that had auto time alignment. Tried the new software and have it still. It is faint with new software and barely heard in the tweets. But soon as I revert back to old software it’s dead quiet .
 

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Best bet is to reach out to Julian with your findings. They are very responsive with issues and bug reports. Been a couple years since I have been in contact with them but they were always quick to respond.

[email protected]
 

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nope. My system has been hooked up over a year now with no changes Recently got engine noise and figured out it was from the software update even though I read they fixed this issue. I had it bad with the beta version that had auto time alignment. Tried the new software and have it still. It is faint with new software and barely heard in the tweets. But soon as I revert back to old software it’s dead quiet .
Like mentioned above, check the ADEP.3 setting in the software. Apparently, the setting can change to "Enabled" after the upgrade, even if it was "Disabled" before - and can cause noise issues. Just make 100% sure it's still "Disabled" - that is what the poster above was suggesting.
 

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Has anyone had any issues with the Stage Expander option reverting back to off after saving and turning off the ignition. It seems to always revert back to the off position?
 
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