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I'd personally try the Audiofrog first, two 2 ohm coils will extract the most from the amp and be pretty clean
 

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Using a high level input seems suboptimal. Do many people do that? It is an interesting idea? If I happened to want to use some other brand for the amp, would it work as well?

Thanks everyone for the help!
technically speaking whats the risk or loss? all you do is connect the speaker output channel into the 2nd amp on the hilevel input side and reduce output from the V Twelve from the software DB settings untill it meats the maximum hi level input voltage of the 2nd amp and your done.

1) you will have gains super low on the 1st amp
2) gains super low on second amp
3) flexibility on whatever amp at whatever rms you desire
 

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I'd personally try the Audiofrog first, two 2 ohm coils will extract the most from the amp and be pretty clean
I have seen this driver be mentioned multiple times as a remedy for these applications but what you hope for in theory doesnt seem to be the case in practise.

this driver has a substantially low ACTUAL output vs claimed, depending on what regular 6.5inch speaker your comparing it to it is on average +4.5db lower then a regular 6.5inch midbass.

so 120x2 (at 2ohms) = 240rms half that due to 3db loss = 120rms and another 1/4 that due to 1.5db additional (total 4.5db) loss = 90rms

your using 4 channels and using them all in 2ohm configuration pushing the amp hard to achieve what you could have with just 90rms on a regular midbass= dont really see the gain/point

here's Erins review on this driver btw:AudioFrog GS8ND2 8-Inch Woofer Review


as mentioned you would be way better off just adding a P Two into the equation and powering a good proper midbass ,
unless there is room limitation to depth on the door I wouldnt go this route of using the dual coil audiofrog tbh
 

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for the given set of speakers (dynaudio) I would rather go with a bit more powerful amp at least for midbass drivers. Those drivers are power hungry
 

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fair play, if the driver doesn't give more for the given power in then doubling it could see you back to square one
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I think I will get the Helix P Two. At some point, I may upgrade to HAT. From reading many threads here, it seems the general consensus on at least this forum is “Dyn is decent but HAT is better.”. But, I’ve already got a fair amount of cash tied up in the system, so, I will stick with they Dyns for now.
 

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I think I will get the Helix P Two. At some point, I may upgrade to HAT. From reading many threads here, it seems the general consensus on at least this forum is “Dyn is decent but HAT is better.”. But, I’ve already got a fair amount of cash tied up in the system, so, I will stick with they Dyns for now.

as if having limited power on tap wasnt bad enough the Dyns are also another weak link, having owned the esotec series
I can say oddly the MW162 woofer lacks bottom end output noticeably while the 8inch version (esotec 362 kit) with the MW172 driver works wonderfully down low with authority.

I would indeed either swap the kit to the Esotec 362 (if they fit) or simply go for another driver.

you could also take advantage of Focals Utopia series both 165w-rc along with the new 165 w-xp are not only 2ohm versions taking out way more juice from your amp but also substantially more efficient then many 6.5 inch drivers.

at claimed 120rms 2ohms (134rms according to hifitest magazine) along with 1w/1mt 89db sensitivity you would have equal output with a typical 87db 1w/1mt driver with 200 (according to hifitest 223rms) on tap and its also a high end product so likely to sound great anyway
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I am sure the Focal Utopia set is great. But I think I’m leaning towards HAT for my next speaker upgrade. But for now, I will just stick with the Dyns and get the amp. I can decide later on the Focal vs HAT.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
So, I am pretty sure I will get the amp, the Helix P Two. It then becomes a different question about what speakers. Should I just stick with the Dyns for now? Upgrade just the midbass? Upgrade them all? For the midbass, should I stick with 6.5 which will fit or go for 8" which will require construction?

At the moment, I'm considering upgrading the midbass and keeping my current Esotek's for the rest. I'm thinking that it will just be easier to stick with 6.5, so, what should I get? I've read some threads here. Lots of people love the AudioFrog GB60. A fair number of fans of Dyn E650. The Purifi got great review, but, it seems to need a box. There is the SS 18WU. I didn't see much love for HAT in the 6.5" size, at least in the threads I read. HAT makes a 7.1, and I guessed the idea was probably to be a speaker that would usually fit in 6.5 location but be almost an 8" in function. That is what I guessed. But I sent HAT an email asking and they said that the 7.1's are best for 2-way systems and recommended their 6.5 for 3-ways. Which surprised me, but, that is what they said.

A few people recommended something I hadn't heard of before. Audio Development ESA BASS. They seem hard to find, I've tried googling. But I found a place in Italy. Though I was a bit surprised because in the thread that mentioned the ESA BASS, they said they were substantially more expensive than the AF. Perhaps the Euro was stronger then or something. Because, I found the ESA BASS including shipping from Italy to USA for 558 Euros, or about $665. Though it will probably take a couple of weeks. So, I'm leaning that way unless someone talks me out of it. (After typing the above, I found at least one USA site that sells AD, but they didn't specify prices. Presumably the same ball-park as the $665?)

Edit... Well, I just found a thread mentioning another AD possibility. The SW600. Like the AF 8", it has dual voice coils. 3.2 ohms. So, conceivably it could be used and not get the additional amp, unless it has the same problem as the AF 8", which I understand to be too inefficient thus negating the DVC advantage.

So, I guess at this moment, I'm thinking the AD ESA BASS and get the Helix amp, or just get the SW600 and no amp -- if that would actually work right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I didn't get any feedback on possibly the SW600. Just based on the price, my guess is it is lower end. So, I've got the Audio Development ESA BASS and the Helix P Two on order. Note that USA retail price on the ESA is $1400 and the P Two is $1200. I'm sure it can be found in some places at a discount. But, I found a site in Italy, RGSound.it. I searched for it here on this forum and people said they had good luck with them. And their price was substantially better. Including shipping from Italy was $660 for the ESA and $900 for the P Two. I figure it will take a few days but given the price difference, it should be worth it. Of course if I do have a problem, getting service will be a lot harder. But that hopefully won't be a problem.
 

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Audiotec Fischer is now showing a new Version B of the Helix V Twelve DSP.

Does anyone know what changed?

A quick comparison of the A and B AMP manuals shows a redesigned motherboard.

Some of the input sensitivity jumpers have been relocated and relabeled.

Not sure what else has changed.

Hopefully the A version is not defective. They haven't notified anyone about this.
 

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Heya, have you come over from the Merc forum? Think I've been following your posts on mbworld
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
So, if anyone cares, here is my current system configuration. I’ve replaced most of the Dynaudio, though I’m keeping the Dyn tweets. Some of the brands of equipment, specifically Acoustic Elegance, MMATS, AudioFrog, Audio Development, I had never heard of until I joined DIY. And while I had heard of Helix before, I wasn’t familiar with the V Twelve or the P Two specifically. So, the system config is highly influenced by this forum. How does it sound? Don’t know yet, still in process of building. The AF mids are supposed to arrive today. So, without further ado, here is the equipment list:

3.1 system (front left/right/center & sub)

Head-unit:
Joying Mazda 6 specific kit

Left & right channels: 3-way system (active):
Audio Development ESA BASS – 6.5” mid-bass
AudioFrog GB40 – 4.0” mid
Dynaudio MD 102 – 1.5” tweeter

Center Channel: 2-way system (active):
AudioFrog GB40 – 4.0” mid
Dynaudio MD 102 – 1.5” tweeter
(NO mid-bass)

Subwoofer:
Dual Acoustic Elegance SBP12 – 12” sub -- infinite baffle configuration

Amplification/processing
Helix V Twelve – 12 channel DSP & AMP
Helix P Two – 2-channel AMP – used for midbass using high-level inputs
MMATS M600.2 – subwoofer amp
 

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Amen to that! Huge oversight for my .02 worth!
Not an oversight. The V12 is actually a 24 channel amplifier that is already bridged internally.
 

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Not an oversight. The V12 is actually a 24 channel amplifier that is already bridged internally.
I understand that but don't you see a benefit to sending 150 watts to midbass drivers instead of only 75? I have ZR800's and think at 75 watts they are just coming alive! Almost every midbass I can think of crave more than 75 watts. No? I would have a V12 if it weren't for that.
 

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I understand that but don't you see a benefit to sending 150 watts to midbass drivers instead of only 75? I have ZR800's and think at 75 watts they are just coming alive! Almost every midbass I can think of crave more than 75 watts. No? I would have a V12 if it weren't for that.
I think you, and most others would be extremely surprised what you can do with 75 watts. After doing this for a while, I have realized that hardly anyone is actually pushing their current signal chain to its limits. I think that's the real reason why people think they need 300 watts on everything.
 

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I think you, and most others would be extremely surprised what you can do with 75 watts. After doing this for a while, I have realized that hardly anyone is actually pushing their current signal chain to its limits. I think that's the real reason why people think they need 300 watts on everything.
I don’t think anyone is saying you need 300w on everything but in all honesty would you throw 75w on the zr800’s and call it good?
 

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I don’t think anyone is saying you need 300w on everything but in all honesty would you throw 75w on the zr800’s and call it good?
depends what the goal here is. Theres so many variables to this that most don't realize. I could get away with Match up7's and get the volume needed with most customers, but that's also because I know how to set up a gain structure properly and most people don't need as much volume as others do.
 

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I understand what you’re saying and obviously gain structure is extremely important but say this was your vehicle and your working with the zr’s/gb60’s or AD ESA’s. Would you settle for 75w and feel like you got the maximum potential out of the drivers themselves with varying types of music and vol levels? I don’t doubt that you could make them sound great but would they sound better with more power?
 
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