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HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

423K views 4K replies 275 participants last post by  audiocholic 
#1 ·
I have used several amps over the past 6 years ranging from RF, LP, McIntosh, MTX, PPI, ARC AUDIO, POLK AUDIO, JBL, ZED, LANZAR OPTI, JL AUDIO, KICKER, ECLIPSE, Etc, Etc. While some amps did have a sound that was pleasing to the ear, I noticed that amps with higher power ratings set to a decent pair of speakers whether they were separates or coaxials sounded just as good as the so called higher end amps. My point is an 100 watt x 4 channel of a good brand sounded just as clean, crisp and clear as the so called higher end brands such as Brax, McIntosh, etc. The same applied to bass as well. I swapped out several good brand of amps with higher end amps to notice very little difference in sound quality using a sealed enclosure. If this is the case, why spend so much money on the so-called higher end brands?
 
#2 ·
That's why some people said an amp is an amp....
This will be a good debate...
So far I notice amp from different origin do sound different, like a Japan brand will sound slightly different to USA amp. I only used limited of amps so I can't really say much on this...
I'm comparing a JL Audio A6450 to a JDM Pioneer DEH-P01's mini amp...
 
#27 ·
agreed 100%. if you have a detailed, revealing set of drivers, especially a three-way system, it will bring out the differences in amplifier characteristics.
i have had (3) amps since diving back into aftermarket mobile audio ( a cheap class D, a good class D and a good class A-B). each amplifier demonstrated unique, distinct and repeatable sound characteristic differences.

if i had left the OEM drivers in the doors i doubt i would have heard any differences.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I have to somewhat agree. I've used countless brands over the last 25yrs. I'm currently using 3 different brands (Mcintosh, Alpine, Kicker). I've never really heard that big of a difference. A difference many claim to hear as night and day which I just think it's other factors and not amps. Now I think there is certain instances when an amps performance changes with age or internal capacitors loose their efficiency or change rating and this effects the sound. I'm talking amps that meet the manufacturers original specifications. But with all things perfect from amp design to amp design, at least in my experience, there has been little to no differences especially at comfortable listening levels. Then again I've never used junk and have always used a careful selection in my equipment. I used the 35 series Alpines from 89 to 94, regarded as some of the best Alpines (even amps) ever made for SQ. I switched them out for the Mcintosh in the same system same power replacements. Only noticed a difference at extremely high volumes. Mcintosh kept it's composure better but I attribute it to them being more under rated than the Alpines. Otherwise, audibly speaking, no difference at least there. I want to make that distinction but I'm not going to try to compare one amp to another in different systems, just not practical or accurate. I only give credence to those that have switched out amps from the same system in this fashion. Most of it is all BS!!

On a side note, my Mcintosh amps are 18-19yrs old and playing like a champ. My alpines croaked at about the 10yr mark. Every Alpine amp I've ever had lasts about 10yrs then I start having problems. I moved them over to other cars and was actually easier on them. So that's something to be said about running high end gear, or at least McIntosh. My actual Mcintosh rep told me they would easily last 30 plus years and told me to send them in at the 30yr mark to have them evaluated. If they do not meet the original specifications at the 30yrs mark they will fix it till they do. Who else does this?
 
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#5 ·
I am not a firm believer in high end amps but I do believe in quality and power.
So I chose Genesis as I saw a lot of 20 year old genesis amps still for sale in working condition. I figured it would be nice to try a second hand ~3 year old for not much money. Here in Europe they are priced quite fair/cheap second hand. It worked so well I decided to get another.
I think it is a sheer power difference but they did sound better than the JBL they replaced. I had one serviced (by their designer Gordon the Amp Doctor) and was still under half of their new price and expect to be able to use it for many more years.

It's not german but it is highly regarded over there (lol).
 
#3,177 ·
Yes. I've noticed that, in the treads I've read so far, the people who think good amps don't sound better don't mention speaker? The first post even brought up coaxial drivers. I know of very few coaxial drivers that are SQ speakers. Of course, speakers make the most difference in the audio chain. If you don't have good speakers, why even bother with expensive amps. But if you do have a nice 2 or 3 way set up, You can definitely hear your high end amp. I noticed this first back in the 90's with an ADS PQ20. Much nicer sounding that the Rockford amps I replaced. Was using ADS 320is components. I think those were some of the best sounding car audio speakers ever made and I wish they still make them. The PQ20 made them sound even better.
 
#10 ·
Lol, I've convinced myself as well! On a serious note, i have always been able to tell the difference in sound between the amplifiers everytime i have done a change, and i do agree that the more expensive the amplifier the better the refinement and the quaracter of the sound...some people are colour blind maybe some people are tone deaf :)

Some of the amplifier brands that I've had the pleasure of owning (not in specific order)
Pioneer GMH
Orion GT, SX
Orion HCCA
Rockford Fosgate DH, DSM, Power
ADS power plate
Pheonix Gold ZX
The purple monsters (forgot the brand, made in florida...the used to also name some of their other amps "Merlin, Terminator...)
Soundstream Old school Reference series
JL audio Slash v1 v2's
Audison Lrx
Arc Audio SE

I may have forgotten a few, but i feel fortunate to have been able to experience so many different manufacturers, in my opinion every change has been in the right direction.
 
#11 ·
Well you also have to take into affect the psychological thought processes involved which is like the "placebo effect". If you think it's better when in actuality it is not, you may still hear a perceived improvement, though there is none. It's funny how the brain will try to mimic your expectations. This is actual science!!
 
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#1,533 ·
I know this is an old thread, but I felt like a lot of you are wrong. A High End amp will most likely sound better,

You just need a set of speakers/cables/crossovers that will be capable of showing you the differences.

Get better drivers, get better crossovers (most car crossovers are not what they could be) Try not to go for active crosses.

Focal Utopia got some beter crosses but generally, apart from the fact that most manufacturers round up the values for the capacitors and do not care much about differences in values on the coils (most crosses have coils too close toghether and in the wrong position) they also use a lot of metal screws around the crosses to make them look nice, all those minor changes do count.

If you want to go high end you have to go all the way to the drivers themselves and quality of components used. Go for revelators, go for morel, go for peerless, go for acutton, go for transmission audio, go for what ever pleases you best but go high end all the way.

Learn how to listen and what to look for. Differences are there, they are big and audible.

If you have jbl speakers or hertz or some thing like that, forget about differences.
 
#12 ·
^I agree to a point, the mind only remembers difference in sound over maybe a period of 20 minutes or so, but I spend a lot of time in my vehicle (in sales on the road 8 to 10 hrs a day) I get to listen to my gear for a pretty good period of time and I can usually tell what's good or not so good or what's pleasing to my ears.

And easy way to test for difference in sounds from different amplifiers is to visit a high end home theater shop (no best buy) they can easily switch from amp to amp and use the same source same speakers...this is why I have an arcam receiver right now...huge sound difference over everyday brands.

Higher end brands spend more more on internal components/power supplies...the end result is better sound, that's a fact...problem is "how much more money are you willing to spend?" to see a result in better performance
 
#18 ·
With the current very average sounding HU's and DSP's you would have to have a very good ear to hear any difference in amps. In the future as source units and DSP's improve the sonic signatures of amps will be more noticeable and in some cases night and day.
 
#129 ·
That is pure and utter rubbish. How is it that people think that amps done make a difference in sound? All electronics change the sound in some way. ALL!! Nobody knows what neutral is because everything colours the sound. Trust me, I have owned a LOT of expensive amps and I will tell you they are not created equal, regardless of power specs. My Orion NT amps are some of the cleanest, most dynamic and powerful amps I've used. And they are 50x2 and 100x2. I would put these up against pretty much anything. :)
 
#20 ·
^ unfortunately I don't think that I can agree with this last comment, I would take the McIntosh amp any day over the kicker or Rockford amp, it's not all about claimed power ratings (but I do agree that having lots of clean power on tap will help greatly on dynamics/headroom and hopefully signal to noise ratio) Kicker/RF may rate their power at greater distortion levels plus at constant 14v....give them less voltage and stop recording your their output at .009/.04 distortion level and you'd probably get 40w or so. Back in the old days people would build whole systems around an amp that would be rated at 22.5w x 2 (the old RF punch45) or even the 25w x 2 Orion HCCA, loud enough to make most people uncomfortable...most manufacturers used to focus more on quality of the sound versus the output levels, they use to rate their power at .004 distortion plus at 12.6volts or so...in fact they were cheater amps and performance much better than their rated power once you lowered the impedance and increased the voltage closer to 14 volts.

Make sure you have a good clean signal to start, also make sure the system isn't starved of available current voltage....the rest is subjective to the owner on which brand they prefer.
 
#21 ·
Stick to the saying garbage in garbage out, start with the source and move down the flow...i wouldn't expect the best amplifier in the world to sound good with bad signal going in.

Same goes with subs...place one of the best subwoofer money can buy in a poorly design box and it will sound really bad, then take a decent sub and put it in the perfect box and it will sound good
 
#22 ·
This horse is so dead. It reminds me of the Skittles commercial when the Zombie on the bus says "You're boring me to death. I'm already dead and you're boring me back to death!"

No one is going to convince anybody else they can or can't hear a difference between amps.

If you can hear a difference, spend extra money on your amps.

If you don't hear a difference, buy a reliable amp that has adequate power for your application and is reasonably priced.

Just for fun somebody start a thread on the audible differences between cables :)
 
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#25 ·
IMVVVHO (V for very) and based on those I've auditioned, different high-end amps will sound different in different cars with different high-end gear.

And tuning makes the most difference. In the end, the installer's (or the DIY owner's) tune is what you will hear.

Like one time I sat in a car with budget amps (Powerbass ASA600.4) powering not-high-end speakers (Focal 165VR3) with a not-high-end head unit (Eclipse CD7200Mk2). The system was professionally installed, properly wired and RTA-tuned and time-aligned... then re-tuned by ear to sound really good. And it did! It sounded like a system worth 5 times the price. Well-balanced with great focus and staging.

Then I sat in another car with high-end amps (Focal Power Symmetric), high end speakers (Utopia Be Kit No.7) and a high-end head unit (Pioneer ODR RS-D7II with processor). The system had just been installed and only basic crossover settings and amplifier gain (level-matching via oscilloscope) had been done done. No RTA. All EQ set flat. No T/A. Sorry, it sounded bad. Really bad. But its actually what one would expect from an untuned system.

Then the owner of the car brought another amp he wanted to try out. A Zapco REF1000.4 (which is definitely not low-end). The installer swapped it in and adjusted gains. With the previous crossover settings, zero EQ and zero Time Alignment, we were all hard-pressed to hear any difference in sound quality. It sounded equally bad as with the Focal Power Symmetric -which is what we all expected to hear.

That system was since professionally tuned over a 2-3 month period and although I haven't heard it yet, I bet it will beat the ASA600.4-VR3-CD7200Mk2 system hands down in any hardcore SQ competition. I'll also bet novices will hear the big difference with the more expensive system sounding so much better, even to inexperienced ears.

My 2-cents: with high end amps (or high end gear), what one is getting is the POTENTIAL to sound great. Whether or not it will sound great cannot depend solely on the amp (or any one component). It will depend on the installation and TUNING. :D

Merry Christmas, folks! :)
 
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#26 ·
I had a friend that felt the same way. We built our systems at nearly the same time. His with some RF amps and i built mine with Zapco...

After slowly replacing every component in his system to be on par with mine, convinced that an amp is an amp. He finally caved and just bought some nice SQ amps... Says it doesn't even sound like the same system now.

I demo amps inside my home on some very nice klipsch reference speakers and can hear a difference between amps. I recently hooked up an old Linear power amp to them and it sounded better than my home stereo amp...
 
#29 ·
for me, when i design systems for customers, i get them to spend money on things that are worth the most in sonic difference in my opinion. and that usually means that on a set budget, the priorities go towards front stage, installation technique/location and DSP...with amps and subs taking a lesser role, becuase i too believe that amps and subs dont quite make as big of a difference as long as t hey are of a certain quality level.

however, having said that, i have also had the opportunity to install a lot of systems where its the same or almost the same car, same speakers, same location, same processing, but different amps, and being able to do that, i can definitely tell a difference from one amp grade to another. mostly, its with dynamics music at moderately high volumes, you can distinctively hear some amps fall apart (despite similar power ratings) and some shrug it off like it was nothing.

but of course, with most customers who will never get to sample A/B between two identical setups with different amps, they would be happy with either setup...but the same thing can often be said for many aspects of decision making in life....and the desire to have the best is still there. :)
 
#30 ·
I agree Cajunner. It comes down to a point to where you are chasing dragons to attain the smidgen of difference that the majority don't care about. I don't believe in buying high ticket amps, but I do believe in quality drivers and staying above a certain minimum quality level for amp power. Simply overshooting the power level is good enough in most cases to insure you don't reach clipping before the drivers start to breakup. I'm satisfied with that.

Competition-wise may be a different story, but I don't compete so that point to me is moot. I'm actually more impressed with making systems perform & impress that don't have highly tiered brand names attached to show my buddies they don't have to spend a fortune to enjoy good sounds during everyday driving. That doesn't mean I don't respect those items for their esoteric design, I just know that I for one would not be able to tell the difference therefore it would be better spent on drivers.
 
#32 ·
Agreed. I would never use cheap ass amps. The differences I am talking about involve really good speakers and mid to high level amps. Good name amps that put out clean power are those that I am talking about. I will stand by my statement that the sonic differences between amps are not distinguishable enough to justify spending extra money for a name brand. Build quality, access to gain controls and designs are most important to me. Designs for me mean using amps that don't have off the shelf designs.
 
#31 ·
My parent's always said I was special. I just knew I was different because I was the only one wearing the padded helmet.
 
#260 ·
Oh , , , your crack'in me up!

Just browsing through this "highend amp SQ myth" thread... Too Funny.
 
#35 ·
Come on guys....are you telling us that every TV looks the same, every computer work just as fast, every headphones sound the same, every car drive the same way because they have all an engine, transmission, exhaust that all works together the same, every dvd player or blue ray players will yield the same picture, every dishwasher will get the dishes just as clean as one another because they all use similar technology....i could go on all day!

bottom line, all these manufacturer use (hopefully) their own R&D, they have of choice of different part suppliers (or in house production) I'm sure there is a lot of trial and error by using different parts to achieve their desired sound....didn't the Zapco guy just recently say that during the new build of his amplifier he had to go back n forth to his build house to demo specific parts/components to finally achieve the sound that he felt was most pleasing!...didn't Scott Buwulda comment also that when they build new speakers that he demos numerous different parts to finally achieve the final product where he can take to production....

I'm not arguing that there is a "huge" difference from one another, but in fact to say that they all sound the same is crazy (in "my" opinion)

but again I don't want to beat a dead horse here....

my wife doesn't really care too much about different TV technology or amplifier...but if I change an amp in my car she'll usually look at me and ask me if I've changed anything....or the typical "what have you done!" which I'm sure we"ve all heard from time to time :)
 
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