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Discussion Starter #1
So I'd like some opinions on the Image Dynamics xs28 tweeters vs the cd1e v3 horns. I was all ready to go with horns but then I was looking at point source speakers and realized I could do a point source with the xs65's. The xs's will be going in the doors or possibly in kicks if I go with the xs28's, four door sedan vehicle.

For all you yshsf mofo's I tried searching and got nothing, besides I want forum member opinions. Thanks for your time.
 

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your comparing two different situations. point source vs path length differences.

the coaxial mount of the xs series will never be the best option in a car since most doors are so off axis. so in that case kicks will offer better "source" if you can fit them.

now the horns are a far different creature. they make a killer center image (i love mine). but if you don't have the eq power, separate left and right..stick with cone drivers...imo

easiest...get the xs and put the tweeter in the pillar...or kicks...

its a cool tweeter..by the way

the horns will be far more vibrant, yet they can be hard to mount and eq.


hope that helps

not tooo many people use horns these days so its hard to find help.

try the id forums imo.

eca was far better in that regard back in the day...sucks no one backed up the site.
 

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what type of vehicle is this going in? what's the rest of your system compose of? the main thing you need to look for with horns is makeing sure your power ratio is good. a good xover/eq is good too but not a demand for it much more. unless your really picky. like me. you could do a good setup with the Q450.4, a set of cd1ev3 and cxs62v2. the xover in the amp is good enough for sending the right freqs. and the power ratio will be great.

edit: i have 2 pair of xs28 tweets in front of me just waiting for the passives to get here so i can actually hear them. but i run ultra horns so i won't be able to compare to the cd1ev3
 

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Discussion Starter #5
your comparing two different situations. point source vs path length differences.

the coaxial mount of the xs series will never be the best option in a car since most doors are so off axis. so in that case kicks will offer better "source" if you can fit them.

now the horns are a far different creature. they make a killer center image (i love mine). but if you don't have the eq power, separate left and right..stick with cone drivers...imo

easiest...get the xs and put the tweeter in the pillar...or kicks...

its a cool tweeter..by the way

the horns will be far more vibrant, yet they can be hard to mount and eq.


hope that helps

not tooo many people use horns these days so its hard to find help.

try the id forums imo.

eca was far better in that regard back in the day...sucks no one backed up the site.

I didn't look at it like that, I guess I wasn't trying to directly compare the drivers themselves I was just thinking point source could be better than horns but answering my own question I guess it depends on the car and available eq. I've been looking at the id site and watched the video on choosing and installing horns. Doesn't seem to be that much of a mounting challenge but I need to drum up the cash for an eq...after I drum up the rest of the cash for the horns...lol.:(:laugh:I realize I am sort of trying to compare apples to oranges though.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
what type of vehicle is this going in? what's the rest of your system compose of? the main thing you need to look for with horns is makeing sure your power ratio is good. a good xover/eq is good too but not a demand for it much more. unless your really picky. like me. you could do a good setup with the Q450.4, a set of cd1ev3 and cxs62v2. the xover in the amp is good enough for sending the right freqs. and the power ratio will be great.

edit: i have 2 pair of xs28 tweets in front of me just waiting for the passives to get here so i can actually hear them. but i run ultra horns so i won't be able to compare to the cd1ev3
A Subaru legacy GT or something similar, between vehicles right now.
I had my setup in my signature forever and never needed it. Just changed it out the other day. Figures. Here it is:

Drz-9255>JL E6450> ID XS65
Jl 250/1>IDQd2v3 Raamat, Ensolite, Deflex Pads.


I guess I was just trying to compare the benefits of each and not the sound of the drivers themselves.
 

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So I'd like some opinions on the Image Dynamics xs28 tweeters vs the cd1e v3 horns. I was all ready to go with horns but then I was looking at point source speakers and realized I could do a point source with the xs65's. The xs's will be going in the doors or possibly in kicks if I go with the xs28's, four door sedan vehicle.

For all you yshsf mofo's I tried searching and got nothing, besides I want forum member opinions. Thanks for your time.
I've done some fairly insane car audio projects. My goal is generally to create a good soundstage with excellent dynamics. You can follow my latest project here:

Creating a Soundstage with Waveguides and Psychoacoustics - Page 2 - diyAudio

IMHO, the absolute best way to achieve these goals is with a Unity horn on the dash. That's some serious work though, and unpracticaly for 99.9% of the people out there.

The second best option is to go with waveguides under the dash. The Image Dynamics are a popular option. I build my own because my goals are different than theirs. (IE, big horns work better than small ones.)

Coaxials and wide range drivers are a reasonable option, but they'll never approach what is possible with compression drivers and waveguides. HLCDs are a lot more work, but if you have the time to invest in getting it right, it's worth it. Properly set up, they provide a larger sound stage, a deeper sound stage and incomparable dynamics.

If anyone is interested in building their own, check out some of my threads. It's really not that difficult; I spend a lot more time tuning my system than building the waveguides.
 

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your comparing two different situations. point source vs path length differences.

the coaxial mount of the xs series will never be the best option in a car since most doors are so off axis. so in that case kicks will offer better "source" if you can fit them.

now the horns are a far different creature. they make a killer center image (i love mine). but if you don't have the eq power, separate left and right..stick with cone drivers...imo

easiest...get the xs and put the tweeter in the pillar...or kicks...

its a cool tweeter..by the way

the horns will be far more vibrant, yet they can be hard to mount and eq.


hope that helps

not tooo many people use horns these days so its hard to find help.

try the id forums imo.

eca was far better in that regard back in the day...sucks no one backed up the site.
A couple of weeks back I discovered a $5 tweak for horns that's pretty amazing... Basically I added 2" of PVC pipe *under* a set of USD horns, and it improved the polar response dramatically.

The difference in sound quality was remarkable; it seemed to move the sound stage back a few inches, and it was more difficult to localize where the sound was coming from.

It also made the horn sound "sweeter", and removed some of the edge off of them.

Not too shabby for $5...

The way that it works is that the PVC pipe reduces diffraction at the horns mouth. Here's a pic of what diffraction looks like:



When the sound exits the horn, it diffracts off the edge, creating all kinds of audible nastiness. The PVC roundover reduces that substantially.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
A couple of weeks back I discovered a $5 tweak for horns that's pretty amazing... Basically I added 2" of PVC pipe *under* a set of USD horns, and it improved the polar response dramatically.

The difference in sound quality was remarkable; it seemed to move the sound stage back a few inches, and it was more difficult to localize where the sound was coming from.

It also made the horn sound "sweeter", and removed some of the edge off of them.

Not too shabby for $5...

The way that it works is that the PVC pipe reduces diffraction at the horns mouth. Here's a pic of what diffraction looks like:



When the sound exits the horn, it diffracts off the edge, creating all kinds of audible nastiness. The PVC roundover reduces that substantially.
Patrick, WOW. You've put a lot of work into this. I looked at your build log. Your nuts. In a good way. Just curious what and how you use to take measurements of the freq response and make the graphs on the other page.
 

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Discussion Starter #11

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Patrick Bateman said:
IMHO, the absolute best way to achieve these goals is with a Unity horn on the dash. That's some serious work though, and unpracticaly for 99.9% of the people out there.
more info on this please
 

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Sweet I'm half way there. I've got the behringer mic and micmate usb pre and an older beater 2.1 gig pc that I rescued from a dumpster. I've already got true rta installed but I will look into arta. This is great.
Arta is amazing stuff. Back in 2006 I used Speaker Workshop and my measurements were hell. 80% of the time I couldn't get consistent results. Arta just works. It's great.

One cool thing about using a gate is that you can tweak the gate to focus on a certain set of data. For instance, if you want a very accurate reading on the high frequency response, you can use a short gate and a high sampling rate. On the other hand, if you want an accurate measurement of the subs, you can use a very long gate, or no gate at all, and a lower sampling rate.

You can even do both, and graph them simulataneously.

It's a ton of flexibility.

I've heard HOLMImpusle is comparable, and potentially more accurate. Haven confirmed the last part (yet.)
 

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A couple of weeks back I discovered a $5 tweak for horns that's pretty amazing... Basically I added 2" of PVC pipe *under* a set of USD horns, and it improved the polar response dramatically.

The difference in sound quality was remarkable; it seemed to move the sound stage back a few inches, and it was more difficult to localize where the sound was coming from.

It also made the horn sound "sweeter", and removed some of the edge off of them.

Not too shabby for $5...

The way that it works is that the PVC pipe reduces diffraction at the horns mouth. Here's a pic of what diffraction looks like:



When the sound exits the horn, it diffracts off the edge, creating all kinds of audible nastiness. The PVC roundover reduces that substantially.
I use ID Ultra Minihorns and would love to try this. Have you posted any photos of how this was done?

If not please elaborate!:)
 

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I use ID Ultra Minihorns and would love to try this. Have you posted any photos of how this was done?

If not please elaborate!:)
I'm going out of town for the weekend, so won't have a chance to post the results for a bit. Basically I took a 2" piece of PVC, cut it in half, and duct taped it to my USD horns.

That's it!

The on-axis response was smoothed out a bit, but it was the off-axis response that improved the most. The roundover reduced diffraction, which made the off-axis response more consistent with the on-axis.

The cool thing is that you don't have to change the crossover or anything. Just duct tape some PVC pipe to the horns and you're done.

Because it's on the underside, it's barely visible. It's flush with the mouth.

I'll post the measurements in a week or so. Here's a pic:



In this pic the roundover extends INTO the mouth, and there's foam in there too. A mod like that requires an adjustment to the xover, but the roundover under the bottom only doesn't require any change. I measured both configurations, but only photographed one.
 
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