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True enough, solid gear that's applicable to install means a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lot of you use gear of higher cost/standing than me. I'm a rather cheap bastard.

You've made an investment in that you've trusted, possibly sacrificed to spend more to have better gear. Yet, if you say that income is relative to the cost of maximizing such gear, isn't that putting the cart before the horse somewhat?

A good tune with a powerful processor really makes that much of a difference. Most swap not because of piss poor drivers, but unknowingly have not maximized what the drivers were capable of. At least spend some time in the seat doing the job yourself. You might find that you can achieve good results on your own. You might also come to understand the reason for such costs.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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My employee can tune probably just as well as I can. But he has his pros and cons, while I have my pros and cons. We tag team cars, we don't assign projects to certain installers

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key word is employee, when you are small, 2-3 workers it makes sense to charge a flat rate, you work on everything together, my comments reflect multiple workers that sometimes you are looking to keep busy if ya catch my drift
 

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Down boy. I am in no way affiliated with Gump. I was replying directly to what I've always thought semantics meant. Independent to the topic of the thread.

I understand this whole thread is argumentative so I get that you're on your toes. I'm literally curious if I've misunderstood what semantics has meant.

That's it.
Ok, then. Semantics is, in laymans terms, the study of language, more specifically the study of the meaning of a part of language (a word, phrase, sentence, paragraph). It is not a "polite" way of saying "you're too stupid to understand what I'm saying". This is also a word that "triggers" me everytime someone uses it. Don't use it unless you're talking about the study of language.
 

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key word is employee, when you are small, 2-3 workers it makes sense to charge a flat rate, you work on everything together, my comments reflect multiple workers that sometimes you are looking to keep busy if ya catch my drift
Tbh, I probably wouldn't know. My business owning experience doesn't extend beyond a specialized 2 man car audio shop a one man e-commerce store lol

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Ok, then. Semantics is, in laymans terms, the study of language, more specifically the study of the meaning of a part of language (a word, phrase, sentence, paragraph). It is not a "polite" way of saying "you're too stupid to understand what I'm saying". This is also a word that "triggers" me everytime someone uses it. Don't use it unless you're talking about the study of language.
It "triggers" you? Tough shit snowflake. Now get to work copying and pasting more definitions.
 

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True enough, solid gear that's applicable to install means a lot, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lot of you use gear of higher cost/standing than me. I'm a rather cheap bastard.

You've made an investment in that you've trusted, possibly sacrificed to spend more to have better gear. Yet, if you say that income is relative to the cost of maximizing such gear, isn't that putting the cart before the horse somewhat?

A good tune with a powerful processor really makes that much of a difference. Most swap not because of piss poor drivers, but unknowingly have not maximized what the drivers were capable of. At least spend some time in the seat doing the job yourself. You might find that you can achieve good results on your own. You might also come to understand the reason for such costs.

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
Ya know BayBoy, I feel like I need to say this again....
A good tune "can make a huge difference with some systems that are in sure need of it", but on other properly set up systems with lots of control, not so much. Honestly, I'm not expecting a lot of improvement in my own system... Enough to spend $150 on a Dayton 408 ? Probably. At least I hope so.
I've already seen my frequency graph, and it's really not too bad.
 

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It "triggers" you? Tough shit snowflake. Now get to work copying and pasting more definitions.
is that all you got, "snowflake", yawn, grow up
 

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Ya know BayBoy, I feel like I need to say this again....
A good tune "can make a huge difference with some systems that are in sure need of it", but on other properly set up systems with lots of control, not so much. Honestly, I'm not expecting a lot of improvement in my own system... Enough to spend $150 on a Dayton 408 ? Probably. At least I hope so.
I've already seen my frequency graph, and it's really not too bad.
I will go on the record & say that I do subscribe to the thought that a quality DSP & a tune are the most important things you can get/do to improve your sound quality. This isn't something I would have said a month ago, in fact, I would've argued the inverse, admittedly from a place of ignorance. Personally, I invested in a Audio Control DM RTA & spent roughly 10 hours clicking buttons & the improvements blew my mind.

To your point, Fish, even with a set of Hertz Mille Legend 3 ways (which I don't consider cheap/bad) I had a massive peak in my mid range that needed a lot of smoothing.

Am I suggesting that you will only achieve premium sound quality with top tier equipment only? Absolutely not. I feel like most recreational enthusiasts will benefit from a $150 Dayton 408 & a competent tune. I'd rather see a guy throw $600 at a DSP & a tune before upgrading any other component in their setup.
 

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I will go on the record & say that I do subscribe to the thought that a quality DSP & a tune are the most important things you can get/do to improve your sound quality. This isn't something I would have said a month ago, in fact, I would've argued the inverse, admittedly from a place of ignorance. Personally, I invested in a Audio Control DM RTA & spent roughly 10 hours clicking buttons & the improvements blew my mind.

To your point, Fish, even with a set of Hertz Mille Legend 3 ways (which I don't consider cheap/bad) I had a massive peak in my mid range that needed a lot of smoothing.

Am I suggesting that you will only achieve premium sound quality with top tier equipment only? Absolutely not. I feel like most recreational enthusiasts will benefit for a $150 Dayton 408 & a competent tune. I'd rather see a guy throw $600 at a DSP & a tune before upgrading any other component in their setup.
Well, here soon, I'll install my DSP, and I will post my honest opinion.
 

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I personally believe $120/hr 3 hr minimum is too much. That's only because my systems generally fall within the $400-700 range. Just like adding a subwoofer to a factory system is the largest value, for me the equipment always takes first priority. Amplification, speakers, wires, install etc. I would rather spend $700 on a system and no professional tune @ $360 vs $340 on gear and a tune. Maybe I'm wrong. Then again, I have never had a professional tune. Same for DSP. I'd rather have the gear then DSP, vs DSP and less to spend on gear. Then again, I probably lean more on the SPL side of things vs SQ.

If I spent significantly more money, say $1500+, my mind would be more open to paying $360. Even thought that still seems a bit much, I feel that's more value. However, I would almost never trust a random shop. Ideally I would rather try and find someone on a forum like this, and give them a side job, and hope for a better rate by cutting the middle man out. I would rather give my money to a person in cash vs a company that needs to make a profit. For instance, I have a close friend who is a mechanic. Anytime I need work on my vehicle I am not able to do, I offer him the side job. I would rather give him $120~ cash on the side vs go to his work and pay the shop $200~, and he only sees $30. It's a win for both of us. Plus we get to hang.

With that being said, if anyone is in reasonably close in the DC/Maryland/Virginia area, I would be open to paying for a tune... to learn. I would be willing to pickup a DSP. I would be shocked if a DSP & tune really made THAT much of a difference...I know many of you swear its necessary...im just being honest. I would love to be shocked!
 

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Ya know BayBoy, I feel like I need to say this again....
A good tune "can make a huge difference with some systems that are in sure need of it", but on other properly set up systems with lots of control, not so much. Honestly, I'm not expecting a lot of improvement in my own system... Enough to spend $150 on a Dayton 408 ? Probably. At least I hope so.
I've already seen my frequency graph, and it's really not too bad.
I definitely won't argue on your setup doesn't sound good as is or that every system needs DSP. For years, many have gone without and never batted an eye. So I can see that point.

Aside from what normally gets preached, my first realization in how powerful some tools can be was the use of an old school Audiocontrol DQX, a mic,and TruRTA. The first setup I had with a wide range of crossover points and 30 bands of EQ (actually more than that if left & right plus a couple of parametric bands are considered). Mannn.... I was hooked just with that and there wasn't even any time alignment in that system. What I thought was pretty good before was night and day afterward. It's amazing how uncontrolled peaks and deviations from a desired curve, no matter how small, can affect a system.

Now, it's hard for me to use anything less though I have setup such for others with decent results (Pioneer network decks with 13 band EQ). If you happen to have read any of my ramblings over the years, you might notice that I don't use expensive gear at all. Most are just hand chosen drivers, reliable amplification, and a DSP of some sort. Heck, I still have the 80prs in my daily driver from when it first came out though it's been retired to standard mode and a first gen Helix controls the signal now (got it used for about $300). If the Dayton had been out back then, it would probably still be heading up things.

Hopefully, you're not taking any of this in a negative way. Surely, the point wasn't to degrade or come across with narcissism. Tuning aides are inexpensive now to where many should at least try it once to see how much better their investment can be regardless of tier.


Keep us updated on your results



Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
 

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Ever since I first replaced the Alpine KTP-445U amp with a Kicker KEY180.4 amp/self-tuning DSP, I realized just how important DSP can be. I was shocked how it moved the vocals up to the windshield (time alignment) and how the auto-EQ made the whole system sound better. And that is just with a very inexpensive amp with a VERY limited auto-tuning DSP (only auto-tuning - can't modify anything manually). A real DSP is so much more powerful than that.

I've found that what someone thinks sounds good is very relative to what they've experienced. :) I thought the very basic system in my 2012 Impala sounded awesome (plug-and-play aftermarket DVD/Navigation radio, Pioneer D-Series speakers and a Kicker KEY180.4 amp/DSP). Now, that system sounds horrible compared to the JL Audio/Helix/AmpPro/Illusion Audio setup in my current car.

Everything is relative. :)
 

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I'm just impressed that someone took a thread that was started in 2010, which got less than a page of original responses... and 10 YEARS LATER; turned it into a 5 page shitshow.
 

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I definitely won't argue on your setup doesn't sound good as is or that every system needs DSP. For years, many have gone without and never batted an eye. So I can see that point.

Aside from what normally gets preached, my first realization in how powerful some tools can be was the use of an old school Audiocontrol DQX, a mic,and TruRTA. The first setup I had with a wide range of crossover points and 30 bands of EQ (actually more than that if left & right plus a couple of parametric bands are considered). Mannn.... I was hooked just with that and there wasn't even any time alignment in that system. What I thought was pretty good before was night and day afterward. It's amazing how uncontrolled peaks and deviations from a desired curve, no matter how small, can affect a system.

Now, it's hard for me to use anything less though I have setup such for others with decent results (Pioneer network decks with 13 band EQ). If you happen to have read any of my ramblings over the years, you might notice that I don't use expensive gear at all. Most are just hand chosen drivers, reliable amplification, and a DSP of some sort. Heck, I still have the 80prs in my daily driver from when it first came out though it's been retired to standard mode and a first gen Helix controls the signal now (got it used for about $300). If the Dayton had been out back then, it would probably still be heading up things.

Hopefully, you're not taking any of this in a negative way. Surely, the point wasn't to degrade or come across with narcissism. Tuning aides are inexpensive now to where many should at least try it once to see how much better their investment can be regardless of tier.


Keep us updated on your results



Man & Machine... Power Extreme!
Thank you BayBoy. I didn't take your post in a negative way at all. But like I say, I think you would be surprised how good my setup sounds without a DSP. I am kind of anxious to get some 31 band control going though 🙂
 

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Anyone got some links or pointers to updated solid guides?

Saw these from 9 years ago, but I'm guessing there's more effective ways of doing it with modern DSP capabilities & REW- thank you individual 31 band EQs, phase/gain/polarity adjustment, etc. all without pulling a panel again.

Speaker aiming tips by cmusic
A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......
Help!! My soundstage ate my windshield!

Seems like a decent way to go would be using REW to measure individual channels, then export compensated EQs, and manually transfer those to the DSP (assuming REW doesn't export compatible file types).
 

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I pretty much lost interest in this thread when it turned into a pissing contest but it came up in my feed for some reason so I will make one comment. Hopefully it won't reignite anything.

The notion of paying more for the same service because someone's income is higher is just off-base. You're just saying that you'd be willing to throw money away because you're in a higher tax bracket. The cost of a service should not be based on the customer's income.
 

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I pretty much lost interest in this thread when it turned into a pissing contest but it came up in my feed for some reason so I will make one comment. Hopefully it won't reignite anything.

The notion of paying more for the same service because someone's income is higher is just off-base. You're just saying that you'd be willing to throw money away because you're in a higher tax bracket. The cost of a service should not be based on the customer's income.
who said they charge more depending on customers wealth/income
 
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