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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
What I have installed;
HU - JVC KDA725
Sub stage - Kicker L3 10" 4 ohm DVC in their prefabbed enclosure, powered by an Alpine MRP-M500
Front stage - Alpine Type S coaxials, previous version

What I'm sitting on;
JL Audio C2 5.25 components
MB Quart ONX4.80 amp

I wouldn't have bought my HU, the Kicker sub, or the Alpine amp if I had to do it again. I was ignorant and used the advise of a salesman at Visions. At least I got really good deals on all of it. I'd like to go 2 way active, with a substage that blends well with it to start. At this point I'd like to use what I have to finish what I started, and then improve upon it down the road.
So my questions. Should I sell it all and start again? Don't really want to, but if that's the only way to accomplish what I want then I can. Can I use the JL components to go active? What crossover points/slopes as a starting point? Finding mounting spots off or on axis? If not, what to use the other 2 channels for? Bridge for a different lower powered sub, some mid bass?
Maybe MSmith can chime in here?
Will making a different enclosure for my L3 be worth the effort? I've read again and again here that a crappy sub in the right enclosure will sound better than a good sub in a badly designed enclosure. .8 to 3cf sealed says Kicker.
I was ready to pull the plug on the JBL GTX47 crossover that's on ebay and amazon only to find that the seller won't ship to Canada. I'm ok with waiting a little and trying out a minidsp. Unless someone can suggest something comparable with the JBL crossover feature and price point that's readily available to us Canucks.
Not installing anything until March at this point, I'm not in any rush as I'm about to start 8 weeks of school and will be putting all my focus into being the best at what I do.

Long winded, but need some seasoned advise. What should I be shopping for at this point, and what should I do with what I have? Thanks!
 

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Ok, since your not in a rush(I'M NOT BEING A SMARTASS) your just going to have to read man.
Search, read, then do it again the answers to all questions have been answered a milion times and are the most commen.
IMHO sell what you got start over and move on.I have owned the l7 and l5 and they are nothing but fart boxes.
Loud as hell in a big ported box with decent amount of power but sound like **** in comparison with other subs.
Started out with alpine type s 6ooc comp set and hated them from the get go.
Owned a an onx 125.4 had all kinds of issues with it(loud random pops,static, really bad turn on pop.) sent it back to sonic.
You could use the jls to go active but running passive with a decent crossover out the box will give you great sound.
What type of budget do you have and we go from their.
 

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Bridge the four-channel down to 2 channels and run your C2's with more power. If you set the gains properly this will give you great headroom (clean dynamics) and will sound great overall.



What I have installed;
HU - JVC KDA725
Sub stage - Kicker L3 10" 4 ohm DVC in their prefabbed enclosure, powered by an Alpine MRP-M500
Front stage - Alpine Type S coaxials, previous version

What I'm sitting on;
JL Audio C2 5.25 components
MB Quart ONX4.80 amp

I wouldn't have bought my HU, the Kicker sub, or the Alpine amp if I had to do it again. I was ignorant and used the advise of a salesman at Visions. At least I got really good deals on all of it. I'd like to go 2 way active, with a substage that blends well with it to start. At this point I'd like to use what I have to finish what I started, and then improve upon it down the road.
So my questions. Should I sell it all and start again? Don't really want to, but if that's the only way to accomplish what I want then I can. Can I use the JL components to go active? What crossover points/slopes as a starting point? Finding mounting spots off or on axis? If not, what to use the other 2 channels for? Bridge for a different lower powered sub, some mid bass?
Maybe MSmith can chime in here?
Will making a different enclosure for my L3 be worth the effort? I've read again and again here that a crappy sub in the right enclosure will sound better than a good sub in a badly designed enclosure. .8 to 3cf sealed says Kicker.
I was ready to pull the plug on the JBL GTX47 crossover that's on ebay and amazon only to find that the seller won't ship to Canada. I'm ok with waiting a little and trying out a minidsp. Unless someone can suggest something comparable with the JBL crossover feature and price point that's readily available to us Canucks.
Not installing anything until March at this point, I'm not in any rush as I'm about to start 8 weeks of school and will be putting all my focus into being the best at what I do.

Long winded, but need some seasoned advise. What should I be shopping for at this point, and what should I do with what I have? Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ok, since your not in a rush(I'M NOT BEING A SMARTASS) your just going to have to read man.
Search, read, then do it again the answers to all questions have been answered a milion times and are the most commen.
IMHO sell what you got start over and move on.I have owned the l7 and l5 and they are nothing but fart boxes.
Loud as hell in a big ported box with decent amount of power but sound like **** in comparison with other subs.
Started out with alpine type s 6ooc comp set and hated them from the get go.
Owned a an onx 125.4 had all kinds of issues with it(loud random pops,static, really bad turn on pop.) sent it back to sonic.
You could use the jls to go active but running passive with a decent crossover out the box will give you great sound.
What type of budget do you have and we go from their.
It's been non stop reading since I got here, the wealth of knowledge here is astounding. Read through all of your adventures with this last night as well, thank you. It helps that this is interesting so I've put in quite some time with this, and why I stopped the headlong rush that I started with. I'm not at all happy with the Kicker box, and I'm currently trying to egg one of the kids at my store into buying it. As far as budget, shoestring, one piece at a time until I have everything that I need! I made a dramatic career change for happiness and took a massive pay cut to do it. Will be worth it in the end though.
I started thinking last night about using my original sub and enclosure on 2 channels, and the C2's on the other 2 channels. Sell the Kicker box, alpine mono and start a sell, buy chain of entertainment to accomplish what I want. Second guessing that, having a response from MSmith though.

Bridge the four-channel down to 2 channels and run your C2's with more power. If you set the gains properly this will give you great headroom (clean dynamics) and will sound great overall.
Thank you for your time, and response!
So you and/or JL can't or won't advocate using your components active? Interesting. Why? With the following that JL's subs, midbass, and amps have here I believe that they will sound good passive, or at least a whole hell of a lot better than my $40 Alpine coaxials. I thought the whole point of going active was to tune sound/soundstage to a particular vehicle enabling a better end result.

I hadn't thought of bridging the ONX4.80 and using it as a 2 channel, I wonder if I can set my gains low enough to go MSmith's route. That will need some more reading.
 

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Second guessing that, having a response from MSmith though.


Thank you for your time, and response!
So you and/or JL can't or won't advocate using your components active? Interesting. Why? With the following that JL's subs, midbass, and amps have here I believe that they will sound good passive, or at least a whole hell of a lot better than my $40 Alpine coaxials. I thought the whole point of going active was to tune sound/soundstage to a particular vehicle enabling a better end result.

I hadn't thought of bridging the ONX4.80 and using it as a 2 channel, I wonder if I can set my gains low enough to go MSmith's route. That will need some more reading.
An extra 6 dB of headroom across the whole range of the components is way more significant than the benefit of going active. Try it both ways, if the crossover of the amp will allow a 5 kHz crossover point... I think you will like the effect of the extra power better.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
An extra 6 dB of headroom across the whole range of the components is way more significant than the benefit of going active. Try it both ways, if the crossover of the amp will allow a 5 kHz crossover point... I think you will like the effect of the extra power better.
You know I'm extremely impressed that someone from JL Audio has talked to me about this. Kudos to you MSmith and to JL Audio. Coming from a management background where good service is important, I value this and will look at your companies products down the road to meet my needs.

However I have to be honest, I have no idea what you mean. There's some pieces missing here for me. So for now, I do nothing until I have further educated myself on this subject!
I apologise for my ignorance, and I'll try to understand this better.
 

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You know I'm extremely impressed that someone from JL Audio has talked to me about this. Kudos to you MSmith and to JL Audio. Coming from a management background where good service is important, I value this and will look at your companies products down the road to meet my needs.

However I have to be honest, I have no idea what you mean. There's some pieces missing here for me. So for now, I do nothing until I have further educated myself on this subject!
I apologise for my ignorance, and I'll try to understand this better.
JL is saying that more power will lead to a cleaner sound. music is very dynamic everything is not playing at the same level in the songs.
While some parts of a given song may be kinda quite there will be other sounds that may be alot louder.
The extra power will help the louder parts sound cleaner and will not clipp the signal.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
JL is saying that more power will lead to a cleaner sound. music is very dynamic everything is not playing at the same level in the songs.
While some parts of a given song may be kinda quite there will be other sounds that may be alot louder.
The extra power will help the louder parts sound cleaner and will not clipp the signal.
I get that aspect of car audio, this is why we run amps. What I'm not grasping is why passive vs. active in this particular case has an end result of 6db headroom. Hey if your game, it's gonna eat at me until I understand this, wann a help me fill in the blanks? Off I go googling!

Forum moderators, if this needs to be moved due to turning into educate a moron, feel free, and I apologize.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Among others, found this;
75w active or 200w passive?

An extra 6 dB of headroom across the whole range of the components is way more significant than the benefit of going active. Try it both ways, if the crossover of the amp will allow a 5 kHz crossover point... I think you will like the effect of the extra power better.
4 channel amps simplify an active install, but so much is wasted on the tweeter side due to the extreme differences in sensitivity. While you're trying to eke out as much power on the mid side, you're keeping gain way down on the tweeter side to maintain a good level match between the two.

So, if you put 50 watts to a tweeter at 92 db 1w/1m, what would you need on the mid side to level match an 86 db 1w/1m mid? Simple answer 200 watts.

So, that being said, since the tweeter is already attenuated in the passive crossover, you're much better off just running the extra power to the passives. Though you lose the flexibility of going active, it's something you can pursue in the future, when you have the desire to cram more amps into your install.
In a lot of research I have done on Passive Xovers, the general consensus is that for every 6dB the xover slope is, it's ~5% power wasted.

100 watts
6dB = 95 watts
12dB = 90 watts
18dB = 85 watts
24dB = 80 watts.

Depending on the power, you might not even notice the difference in the power lost.

Extra power is ALWAYS good, it will provide you with headroom. As said above, having more power then needed wont hurt, as long as you know how to use it.

I ran 225 watts to each side to a set of Dyn comps (passive) and they loved it, though the xover didn't agree at times, but I then went active on them w/75w to each speaker and it was better, due to the amount of control I had over the sound. I now run actively and wouldn't change for anything. The mids did sound as if they wanted a bit more power in that set up, but I am no longer running the Dyns.
Not necessarily, the 80 watt rating is more than likely running full range. Having them high passed at around 80hz would significantly raise their power handling.

I ran 150 watts into an MB Quart 5.25" and Focal tweeter though the Focal passive crossover with no issues at all, and I'm sure they weren't rated to handle that much power.©
Bridge the four-channel down to 2 channels and run your C2's with more power. If you set the gains properly this will give you great headroom (clean dynamics) and will sound great overall.

So if I grok this: the woofers have a lower sensitivity/efficiency than the tweeters. (89.0 dB @ 1W/1m vs 95.0 dB @ 1W/0.5m) The tweeters are attenuated to match output of the woofers (somewhat adjustable) via passive crossovers. The passive crossovers waste some power as well. If I want to run what I've brung for now, best SQ is going to be bridging my 4 channel, starting with a high pass filter either at HU or amp approx 1/2 octave higher than the published minimum frequency thereby increasing the power handling capability of the woofers, and then playing with attenuation for my tweeters. So I'm adjusting 3 settings, gain, hpf, and attenuation for tweeters, before adding sub stage. Then using a rta and eq'ing where appropriate. Not exactly plug and play!

If I'm dead set on running these active, my ONX4.80 (potential quality concerns aside) won't be able to feed the woofers the appropriate amount of power off of 1 channel/driver to match the output of the tweeters after gain for them is set correctly. I would need another amp, and some processing power.

Am I on the right track now?
 

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The MB Quart is rated for 80W x 4 into 4 ohms, and 320 x 2 bridged into 4 ohms.

If you run it active, the 80W driving each mid will be fine at moderate listening levels, but it will clip (distort) the peaks at higher listening levels. The primary advantage of active is that when the mid channel clips, the tweeter channels won't clip so it is a bit cleaner than running 80W to both the mid and tweeter through a passive crossover.

If you bridge the amp to 2 channels and drive your mids and tweeters with 320W of clean, unclipped power, the system will play cleaner at higher volumes because of the extra clean power to the mids during dynamic peaks. Neither the mids or tweeters will have to reproduce a clipped signal at any sane listening level. As long as you don't play it loud with ill-recorded, low fidelity garbage recordings, the setup will be reliable, too.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The MB Quart is rated for 80W x 4 into 4 ohms, and 320 x 2 bridged into 4 ohms.

If you run it active, the 80W driving each mid will be fine at moderate listening levels, but it will clip (distort) the peaks at higher listening levels. The primary advantage of active is that when the mid channel clips, the tweeter channels won't clip so it is a bit cleaner than running 80W to both the mid and tweeter through a passive crossover.

If you bridge the amp to 2 channels and drive your mids and tweeters with 320W of clean, unclipped power, the system will play cleaner at higher volumes because of the extra clean power to the mids during dynamic peaks. Neither the mids or tweeters will have to reproduce a clipped signal at any sane listening level. As long as you don't play it loud with ill-recorded, low fidelity garbage recordings, the setup will be reliable, too.
Wow, thank you for your input on this. So I'm understanding this correctly, but I missed a chunk as well. *edit* OK, I get this now, took a bunch of reading too. Headroom.

I'm not a fan of loud, I'm more interested in clean sound. Which is why I'm not a fan of my Kicker sub stage or my Alpine front stage. Can or will your engineering department provide t/s parameters for these drivers? I've discovered WinISD and I'd like to try modelling the woofers, along with some of your subs to see what that will look like. I'd like to figure out what I would need to continue down this path.
 

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Wow, thank you for your input on this. So I'm understanding this correctly, but I missed a chunk as well. *edit* OK, I get this now, took a bunch of reading too. Headroom.

I'm not a fan of loud, I'm more interested in clean sound. Which is why I'm not a fan of my Kicker sub stage or my Alpine front stage. Can or will your engineering department provide t/s parameters for these drivers? I've discovered WinISD and I'd like to try modelling the woofers, along with some of your subs to see what that will look like. I'd like to figure out what I would need to continue down this path.
We provide T/S parameters for all of our subwoofer drivers on our website on each subwoofer driver's product page. Just click on the "Specifications" Tab and then on "Parameters".
 

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Discussion Starter #14
We provide T/S parameters for all of our subwoofer drivers on our website on each subwoofer driver's product page. Just click on the "Specifications" Tab and then on "Parameters".
I've seen that, thank you. Can't find TS parameters for the smaller drivers, such as the C2's that I have.
 
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