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This thread is about car audio so I fail to see the relevancy in that reply & video. If you have some sort of political bone to pick, I suggest finding those who it applies to.

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This thread is about car audio so I fail to see the relevancy in that reply & video. If you have some sort of political bone to pick, I suggest finding those who it applies to.
No bone to pick… I just thought that the “Sad” part was funny.
(I read it, it seemed t apply to the myriad of responses?)

Anyhow you probably have good ideas for his car… you usually offer a decent perspective, so don’t get vexed by my humour or lack thereof. ;)

I am too lazy to even pick a bone (even with) myself, at the moment.
 
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No bone to pick… I just thought that the “Sad” part was funny.
(I read it, it seemed t apply to the myriad of responses?)

Anyhow you probably have good ideas for his car… you usually offer a decent perspective, so don’t get vexed by my humour or lack thereof. ;)

I am too lazy to even pick a bone (even with) myself, at the moment.
Perhaps it is funny to some, but I tend to stay away from politics & religion as either can certainly trigger unwanted things. Wasn't sure if you forgot what thread you were in or throwing out bait.


Anyways... let me eat my breakfast to give me time to go over how I need to put my thoughts into words so I can make some sense of what I'm trying to convey. I also should scan through the thread to see if any driver changes were made from what I last viewed.

Monaro... is the car? Taken into consideration.

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Monaro... is the car? Taken into consideration.
His car is a 2004 Pontiac GTO; which is a rebranded Holden Monaro.

It has 6.5" holes in the rear deck, which had factory subs installed. The primary issue with the car is the fuel tank is in the trunk, right up against the rear seat and under the rear deck. So there's no room to put anything with depth into the rear deck.

I've a 2005 GTO, which is the same layout when it comes to the audio system, and here is what the trunk looks like. You can see the fuel tank taking up a large portion of the space, and how it prevents anything of substance from being installed in the rear deck.

Car Light Hood Motor vehicle Trunk
 

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So from my perspective (which won't be worth 2 cents to some), there's numerous things wrong in the setup if it still stands as I saw earlier in the thread.

Pioneer 1500... good decks IMO. They have the same network capabilities as others except for the PRS series. EQ & xover are decent if you don't handicap them.... will get to that in the driver section.

Whispers.. always intriguing, but not without issues in the midrange. Not a big deal here since you're running passive between those and the door drivers. That's if the passives are doing things close to right.

Silver Flutes...I see these as a problem for many. Yes, they're very inexpensive, good throw, and perhaps impressive midrange. Still, midbass... not something I would choose especially in this scenario. With no natural bump or rise in the lower portion of bandwidth needed in a car door, this means they will need some extra EQ for proper tonality. It may look good on paper, but the reality is more than likely they aren't doing the subs any favors. Many say low Q doesn't matter when crossing above Fs and they are correct to a point, but that's a much different suggestion vs the response that is beneficial when you are DSP or EQ limited as in a fairly bare bones system. That's been my experience over the years any way....

The subs (GBW801 correct?)... we've discussed this before and my big issues are

1. We don't know the true parameters of the Blaupunkts. I would like to believe they are what is claimed but Blau isn't what they used to be.

2. If the specs are correct, I still take issue with the Qts... not the Fs. That is correct... the Fs is actually fine for IB, but the Qts and other parameters leave a bit to be desired for an 8" that undoubtedly will not be as influenced by trunk size as much larger subs would. I know questions will come about the Fs... I welcome them, but let's move on in case questions or debates are stagnant.

The alternate OB subs used... those were on the other end of the spectrum for what would be rather ideal. The extremely high Q is obviously for OB... not necessarily beneficial to a vehicle with the usual transfer function we know cars to have. The Fs, if correct, combined with that super high Q, added to a vehicle's acoustics... that wouldn't have been my choice either. The designed peak is an obvious need for OB but not worth the tradeoffs in a trunk baffle.

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Discussion Starter · #251 ·
So from my perspective (which won't be worth 2 cents to some), there's numerous things wrong in the setup if it still stands as I saw earlier in the thread.

Pioneer 1500... good decks IMO. They have the same network capabilities as others except for the PRS series. EQ & xover are decent if you don't handicap them.... will get to that in the driver section.

Whispers.. always intriguing, but not without issues in the midrange. Not a big deal here since you're running passive between those and the door drivers. That's if the passives are doing things close to right.

Silver Flutes...I see these as a problem for many. Yes, they're very inexpensive, good throw, and perhaps impressive midrange. Still, midbass... not something I would choose especially in this scenario. With no natural bump or rise in the lower portion of bandwidth needed in a car door, this means they will need some extra EQ for proper tonality. It may look good on paper, but the reality is more than likely they aren't doing the subs any favors. Many say low Q doesn't matter when crossing above Fs and they are correct to a point, but that's a much different suggestion vs the response that is beneficial when you are DSP or EQ limited as in a fairly bare bones system. That's been my experience over the years any way....

The subs (GBW801 correct?)... we've discussed this before and my big issues are

1. We don't know the true parameters of the Blaupunkts. I would like to believe they are what is claimed but Blau isn't what they used to be.

2. If the specs are correct, I still take issue with the Qts... not the Fs. That is correct... the Fs is actually fine for IB, but the Qts and other parameters leave a bit to be desired for an 8" that undoubtedly will not be as influenced by trunk size as much larger subs would. I know questions will come about the Fs... I welcome them, but let's move on in case questions or debates are stagnant.

The alternate OB subs used... those were on the other end of the spectrum for what would be rather ideal. The extremely high Q is obviously for OB... not necessarily beneficial to a vehicle with the usual transfer function we know cars to have. The Fs, if correct, combined with that super high Q, added to a vehicle's acoustics... that wouldn't have been my choice either. The designed peak is an obvious need for OB but not worth the tradeoffs in a trunk baffle.

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You make some good points.

The whispers...well I ended up getting those to sound good with lots of playing with the eq. Then the dayton AMT tweets were overbearing, so i put a resistor on them to tone them down. I really deadened the doors and rear panels quite well and I think most people would be surprised how good the flutes sound, and i know I've read where they dont have any or much bass, but thats not true with mine. Like I said before, I almost dont need subs...but cruising down the highway with the windows down....i can't hear as much bass.
The blaupunkts are out of the picture and I've given up on the audiophile drivers. They just arent what I'm looking for. I Ordered some cerwin vega's that should be here today. I'f they dont do what i want in the back deck then I'll build some boxes and put them in the side panels. Or I'll put a box back in the trunk. we will see.
 

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You make some good points.

The whispers...well I ended up getting those to sound good with lots of playing with the eq. Then the dayton AMT tweets were overbearing, so i put a resistor on them to tone them down. I really deadened the doors and rear panels quite well and I think most people would be surprised how good the flutes sound, and i know I've read where they dont have any or much bass, but thats not true with mine. Like I said before, I almost dont need subs...but cruising down the highway with the windows down....i can't hear as much bass.
The blaupunkts are out of the picture and I've given up on the audiophile drivers. They just arent what I'm looking for. I Ordered some cerwin vega's that should be here today. I'f they dont do what i want in the back deck then I'll build some boxes and put them in the side panels. Or I'll put a box back in the trunk. we will see.
Which ones did you order? I take it you're going off of my previous experience with them, if you got the ones I have? It will be interesting to see your results compared to mine.

I do wish you would slow down a bit in your purchasing gear, but I'm not one to bash. We all operate differently. Keep me posted.




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What I will add since no one has yet to question the Fs and before I forget my words, I do run my little 8"subs without a subsonic filter. Yes, they're wide open on the bottom end and actually sound more natural than the Ultimax that were tried both ways. Possibly handle it better as well. The reason here is very fundamental. Fs is NOT a brick wall spec. IE.. many drivers can play below Fs but since the sub starts to fall near where most vehicles have picked up already, that slope off isn't as audible as most would think. In fact, it can and did wind up sounding pretty linear, similar to what an "ideal" sealed sub sounds like when dovetailed with the car. Ideal gets touched on later. Of course this depends on the Qts & Fs relationship in use... too high, a nasty peak, and too steep of a drop-off isn't going to be helped much by the car. I can hear "but EQ..". Don't bother.

Let's go in the other direction.... where most will say what looks great on paper or maybe even modeling. A low Fs...20's... 30's whatever you dream to be "perfect". Oh yes... and a buttery smooth looking Q on paper.. above .4 and up to .7 most will probably agree, yes? Except we are forgetting again... that low end gain of the car... combined with the shallower slope of the lower Q sub plus that low Fs dreamed of... now tell me what will you have? SLOP! That's what you'll have... sloppy booty bottom end that's sounds impressive at first until you realize the notes aren't as definitive. The slop of the bottom might even blur the sub's upper performance.

Sounds familiar doesn't it... same problems with some door midbass, perhaps? Had that a few times myself. "But EQ...". Yesss, now insert more phase issues than needed into the mix by trying to overcome with EQ. But here's what's even funnier.... that lower Fs & beautiful Q will probably need a subsonic filter more than the mid 40's Fs and higher Q that's only added a slight boost in the "musical" bass range but still digs deeper than thought. I tested that with some Dynamix II. Don't judge me.

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I have chopped out that 40hz region. I chopped up to 17.4db out of it. It sounds like crap higher and lower than that with the subs I have now. It’s more complicated than that, some songs sound fantastic, some I can’t hear some bass notes that I know are there. I’m brainstorming right now. I’m considering building enclosures for my side panels and putting subs in there. I have a few ideas, and I’ll get there.
I haven’t heard anyone else’s car. None of my friends car much about audio anyone. Faded out pretty much. Most of my buddies are into fast cars. I’m not really into the audio either, nothing like I used to be, but I’ve become interested here lately on just getting a decent stereo in my hot rod.
I had only listened to my own car before a few months ago as well. I tried with a single 10 in a sealed before and was lacking that depth that I was looking for from a home setup (although I do like a good amount of bass capability). But the only cars I could sit in were guys from sound of tri-state, all of which had 24in ported subs, or walls of 12s. Basically all spl guys, and I had zero interest in what they had going on.
All the while, I was lurking on here without an account and read on here about how much people loved their IB setups with big drivers and how smooth and "transparent" the bass was. So I thought I would take a shot in the dark and try it out. I picked up a 13in w6v2 and made an IB wall. Sounded bloated at first until I hit it with some eq, and wow. The top end of the midbass transition was just as smooth and about the same volume, but now I had some low end authority down into the mid 20s while still being able to jam out when I wanted.
Can you make some 8s work? Yes absolutely. But if you want a rising bass response as most people do in a car, and want it above fairly low listening levels, I don't believe it's possible to move enough air with 2 8s.
 

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Discussion Starter · #258 ·
Which ones did you order? I take it you're going off of my previous experience with them, if you got the ones I have? It will be interesting to see your results compared to mine.

I do wish you would slow down a bit in your purchasing gear, but I'm not one to bash. We all operate differently. Keep me posted.




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I ordered the 2ohm vegas...like you have.
 

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Can you make some 8s work? Yes absolutely. But if you want a rising bass response as most people do in a car, and want it above fairly low listening levels, I don't believe it's possible to move enough air with 2 8s.
I don't find this to be true. At least in my experience... maybe others. I've played with enough IB setups to come to the realization that many aren't really optimized. You really shouldn't have to EQ a proper IB setup into submission much more than a proper sealed setup. A good sealed will dip down just as low and a proper IB should be as musical with decent overshoot, but the difference and the targeted advantage of IB is of course.. better efficiency without the weight and room taken up with an enclosure.


That said... here's some interesting bits of yore. Notice the 12 was only spec'd with a 40hz Fs albeit the 8 & 10 were high 30's? This wasn't uncommon back then though xmax wasn't as high as current subs. Lots of efficiency lost in unnecessary low Fs these days I bet.

Notice #10 in this thread



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