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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Alright, so after doing our little test with an infinite baffle setup in my trunk (see link in sig), I want to do a full IB install in my car, which now brings me to the "which sub(s)" question.

Goals:

- Outstanding low frequency reproduction (clean, no distortion, plays as low as possible, does so with great authority - I will be competing in SQ this season)
- Plenty of output for rockin' out (my personal listening taste is louder than judging :))
- I have a front sub, so playing up high isn't a real necessity, but it'd make me feel better and I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it (i.e. I'd prefer a low distortion low inductance motor)
- Excellent transient response
- Not absurdly heavy - I'd like the baffle + sub to weigh less than the ~60 lbs my current enclosure weighs

Limitations:

- Power on tap: ~450W at 8, 850W at 4, and 1500W at 2 ohms
- One 15" or 2 12" speakers - a pair of 15's is possible but is stretching it
- Usable airspace in trunk is ~11 cubic feet and vents outside through small vents in fender well
- Budget: < $325 shipped for sub(s)


Research:

AE - Everyone here loves the AE IB15A's, and I wish I had gotten a pair when they were still available. They'd be perfect for the price and how I'd use them. (anyone selling a pair???) However, John doesn't make them anymore, and the replacement, the SBP-15 is twice as expensive. I have firsthand experience with it, and it's a great sub. I can reach it's output limitations if I'm really rockin' out though. Also, there's the 2+ month wait time to get one in my hands. My system needs to be done by mid February..

Fi - The new Fi IB3 15-4 looks to be a great alternative. Nearly twice the xmax of the AE gives me more output with a single sub. It's price is attractive. I don't know if it has shorting rings or other distortion/inductance reducing technology, and haven't been able to find this info. I just fired off an email to Fi, but in the meantime, does anyone know? I can't find much experience with the 15" version, especially in car. Lots of home guys and a few car audio guys use the 18's and seem to be happy, but I'd really like to hear some feedback for the 15's.

Dayton - The Dayton IB385 is another IB-specific 15" sub that I've found. It's price is also attractive, but has the smallest xmax of the 3, so I feel like I'd need more than 1. At this point, the qtc becomes nearly 1 in my smallish trunk, so I don't think that's the way I want to go.

Other options? I know there's a guy on here who uses a pair of cheap Audiobahn or Pyles and has pretty good results. Miller still has the cheap DB Drive K3 15 that I could use/get another one to match.

A pair of 12's from most reputable brands will put me over the budget limit. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Fi, but I'd sure like to hear some experience with it, and your comments about any/all of the ones I listed.

Graphs:

First one - A single AE, Dayton, and Fi along with the cheap DB Drive as a comparison, all at their rated power (power to reach xmax in the trunk). Fi is lookin' pretty good here.



Second one - A single Fi and AE, a pair of the Daytons, and a pair of DB Drives, old AE IB15's, and a pair of Dayton HF12's for comparison, again, at their rated power. Daytons and DB Drive starting to get peaky, and the pair of IB15s killer.



Sorry that this is fairly long, but it's not just another which sub thread :)
 

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Have you looked at the Dayton Reference? The HF model is one I'm looking at for running IB. On paper it seems it would work but I haven't modeled it yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
My second graph has a pair of Dayton HF 12's modeled as a comparison. If you click on the graph it'll get bigger and you can see better - they're the white line at the bottom. They want more like 7 cubic feet, so 11 is a bit much for them.

A pair of Dayton HF 15's are very happy with 11 cubic feet and model well. A pair is getting out of my price range, and they are heavy suckers. Another goal of this trunk redesign is to save some weight from the 60lb+ ported enclosure for a pair of Dayton HO 10's that I currently have.
 

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Ok, I don't know how I missed that before. I completely forgot I had WinISD on my laptop so I'll have to play around with some numbers myself :)
 

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a few folks used the IDQ's well IB.

a few swear by the incriminator audio subs. don't recall a model #... may have to be made specially. the HQ is actually pretty close to me (about an hour away), IIRC.


Honestly, if you can go with 2 subs you open up the doors a good deal more as you should be striving to keep the drivers under xmax (if the rated is actually realistic, as I'm finding most aren't) to keep distortion low. The problem is just that you double cost. HOWEVER, the fact that you have more possibilities means you may actually save money (or at the least, break about even). There are a lot of subs out there that, while not marketed as IB specific, work well IB. You may just have to play the game of trying a few out. I realize your schedule doesn't permit, but seeing as how the AE's are seemingly out of the picture. The fi seems like a no brainer for this situation. But, I understand your hesitation to buy something not readily reviewed.

Keep in mind that your wiring configuration will change the Q (increasing resistance raises Q, lowering lowers Q), and also the car's cabin gain is REALLY going to change the Q. So, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this value; I certainly wouldn't let it make or break a purchase decision.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Erin. I think the Incriminator you're thinking of is the Flatlyne? They don't post specs of the 15 unfortunately. They're also not cheap.

I know what you mean about the xmax, though I would absolutely believe that the Fi has more xmax than the others.

I would really like to go with a pair, both from aesthetic and distortion standpoints. I really like the look of a pair, and the lower excursion that goes with it. But as you say, the price goes way up way fast. I'm totally open to a non-IB specific sub if I can get a pair for around 300, but at that point it's hard to know where to start.

I just read a thread where you posted Q measurements taken in a bunch of different configurations (trunk open/close, full/empty, doors/windows up/down, etc) and saw how big a difference everything plays. Very interesting. I don't ever drive with the windows down, and only have stuff in the trunk when I drive cross country a couple times a year, so at least that's fairly consistent.

As far as the IDQs - I think it was only the v2's that people used IB. I'd rather go with something currently available that I could get new or darn near close to new rather than something that's been sitting in someone's garage for 3+ years.
 

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I wish I had my FI IB318 setup in the fall meet so you could have heard it, but for the spring meet I should have everything setup, but my guess is you cant wait that long. The young aren't very good at waiting, at least I wasn't when I was in college, haha :p

From what I know about you I would say go with two 15's if you can fit them.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
First competition I'm planning on for this season is Feb 26, so that's my deadline.

But also, you're right, I'm impatient. I've only had 1 box sit for more than 2-3 days before getting installed.

I won't get to start the install until at least mid-January, so I have until then to research and decide. I wish I could have hear yours too.
 

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I wrote a witty and cool response after Erin's long one...but this stupid Tapatalk won't hit the server....so now I'm just sub'd.

(my response had something to do with Drake's FI 18 and my semi-FI 12 :rolleyes:)
 

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All ID subs worked well in IB. I have 4 IDQv3 10s in the rear deck of my BMW
They are going to be replaced by some JL subs this year, but the ID have been there for like 4years with zero issues and they got plenty loud.
 

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Thanks Erin. I think the Incriminator you're thinking of is the Flatlyne? They don't post specs of the 15 unfortunately. They're also not cheap.

I know what you mean about the xmax, though I would absolutely believe that the Fi has more xmax than the others.

I'm speaking more in terms of other companies' ratings. Beyond that, you have to be careful to compare apples to apples. Some use a linear xmax, which is what I believe is based on klippel/duramax data that has either a 10 or 20% distortion limit (thus, linear = under x% distortion) and some just use flat out mechanical xmax. These are not the same.

I would really like to go with a pair, both from aesthetic and distortion standpoints. I really like the look of a pair, and the lower excursion that goes with it. But as you say, the price goes way up way fast. I'm totally open to a non-IB specific sub if I can get a pair for around 300, but at that point it's hard to know where to start.

I'm actually thinking of something like 2 12's where you can have PLENTY of options at under $150/each. 2 12's output > 1 15 output, and since you're OK with 1 15, I'd be looking at 2 12's. Further food for thought, getting back tot he linear bit above: some larger drivers have lower xmax than their smaller brothers. The most recent example I can think of is the Arc Audio 4.0 and 6.0 that I klippel'd a couple months ago.

I actually had something like a pair of JL 12w3v2's in mind.
JL Audio 12W3v3-4 (12W3v34) 12" Single 4 ohm W3v3 Subwoofer

I'm not saying they would work, but I am saying it's something to consider. You don't have to go top-tier to get good performance here. IMO, sub-bass is COMPLETELY overblown to us car-fi guys. Right enclosure + right tuning = great sound.


I just read a thread where you posted Q measurements taken in a bunch of different configurations (trunk open/close, full/empty, doors/windows up/down, etc) and saw how big a difference everything plays. Very interesting. I don't ever drive with the windows down, and only have stuff in the trunk when I drive cross country a couple times a year, so at least that's fairly consistent.

Not only that, but the eq you apply, the car's transfer function, etc all play a role here in large signal performance. And, again, you can vary Q by changing the configuration.
http://www.mh-audio.nl/newqts.asp


As far as the IDQs - I think it was only the v2's that people used IB. I'd rather go with something currently available that I could get new or darn near close to new rather than something that's been sitting in someone's garage for 3+ years.

Understood. That was just a suggestion. I'm sure if you search car audio stores online you'll find a lot more options than you realize you have.
responses in bold. too lazy to multi-quote. ;)

Hope it helps. :)
 

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Any chance you can buy one 15 now and maybe buy another in a few months? If you were to angle them slightly, they would fit, right? Otherwise if it were me I would pick the single 15 that offered the most displacement especially if you're not worried about them playing up high.

Most subs I've tried sounded great in IB. The one I can say for sure not to get is the Tempest X (which I think is no longer made). It was just so low end heavy that I didn't have enough EQ to tame it. It was nice though, having a 28mm xmax.

I like having more displacement than I'll ever need. I'm getting addicted to organ music now. They just play so clean at levels that I keep expecting them to distort but it's just loud, clean very deep bass. Out of curiosity, how did you run the AE to it's limits?
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Which one is that? Just curious.
Freezefest in TN.

All ID subs worked well in IB. I have 4 IDQv3 10s in the rear deck of my BMW
They are going to be replaced by some JL subs this year, but the ID have been there for like 4years with zero issues and they got plenty loud.
I had a pair of IDQ12v3's sealed that I liked. Ran into some mechanical noise at higher volume though. They aren't cheap either.

responses in bold. too lazy to multi-quote. ;)

Hope it helps. :)

And the multi quote didn't grab any of your responses, lol. Thanks for the input.

Good point about the way xmax is rated. It is hard to know.

I'd be fine with 2 12's... it just becomes a lot more daunting when you start to consider any 12" sub out there. To get an idea from a quick glance, what should I be looking for? I'd assume qts above .4, largish vas, low Fs... anything else? I'd love to be able to get a nice pair of 12's and put them back there... but I do want to make sure they'll play nice in this kind of setup. With everyone loving on the IB15s.. I don't want to take too much of a step down :)

W3 looks nice, but a pair of them only want like 3.x cubes, so I don't think I'd feel good about nearly quadrupling that. If that isn't really an issue, what IS important in an IB setup?

Any chance you can buy one 15 now and maybe buy another in a few months? If you were to angle them slightly, they would fit, right? Otherwise if it were me I would pick the single 15 that offered the most displacement especially if you're not worried about them playing up high.

Most subs I've tried sounded great in IB. The one I can say for sure not to get is the Tempest X (which I think is no longer made). It was just so low end heavy that I didn't have enough EQ to tame it. It was nice though, having a 28mm xmax.

I like having more displacement than I'll ever need. I'm getting addicted to organ music now. They just play so clean at levels that I keep expecting them to distort but it's just loud, clean very deep bass. Out of curiosity, how did you run the AE to it's limits?
If I really wanted to, I could get a pair of AE 15's now, but I'm just not interested in spending $600 for speakers that will play less than 2 octaves. It's not height-wise that doesn't fit, it's width. The opening between the cabin and the trunk is just under 30 inches in diameter. I didn't think it'd look very good to have a fraction of the sides of each one cut off. But I could flush mount them or something so it would be less of an issue. Just a little more work.

Ran the AE to it's limits on some bass music at pretty high volume, and with the volume darn near maxed on a Dream Theater song with heavy kick drum. Certainly louder than I'd normally listen, but I like to know that the volume can be cranked to the max and nothing will break. Normal listening volume at 20-25 out of 35 on the Alpine. I don't want to ever have a "do not exceed this volume level or stuff will start breaking" point.

Thanks for the input guys.
 

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Freezefest! That's where I plan on 'debuting' my new install as well. Glad to know someone else will be there. Looking forward to it! :)


Regarding the subject, well, honetly it's been a while since I've looked at subs with the intent to buy. I've had the IB15's for about 3 years now and have never really desired to try anything else.
I agree with BuickGN here: what about buying one for now? For your purpose of competing, one will suffice. I have mine dialed back so much it's ridiculous. I could easily run one and do just fine. You can build the baffle for two, blank off the spare hole, and then add the 2nd at a later time. Of course, the issue I see there is simply availability.


I'll try to think of some other options. I honestly can't think of anything off the top since I haven't looked in about 3 years.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
With the current price of the AE's, I simply don't want it bad enough to spend more on subwoofers than my entire front stage (including the front sub). I'd like to build it once and be done.

I know for competition I could easily get by with 1. But there's just something about 2... :)

Anyway, I appreciate any other recommendations (or experience with the Fi) you guys can come up with.
 

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No one mentioned the W15Gti. I know it's not exactly featherweight but since you need output (but can't use 2x15") and low distorsion, I feel that it would suit your purpose well.

Been comparing a few subs to those specs: SBP15-4 & IB15A-4 and it seems like you want low FS, high Vas, Qes around 0.45 and Qts around 0.41.
Closest that I found to those are:
Icon 15
Arc 15D2
RSS390HF-4 (closer specs to the AE, lower inductance, lower FS, better power handling, only $15 more ;) what's not to like?)

Kelvin
 

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No one mentioned the W15Gti. I know it's not exactly featherweight but since you need output (but can't use 2x15") and low distorsion, I feel that it would suit your purpose well.

Been comparing a few subs to those specs: SBP15-4 & IB15A-4 and it seems like you want low FS, high Vas, Qes around 0.45 and Qts around 0.41.
Closest that I found to those are:
Icon 15
Arc 15D2
RSS390HF-4 (closer specs to the AE, lower inductance, lower FS, better power handling, only $15 more ;) what's not to like?)

Kelvin
Sweet leaping Jesus, that JBL is somethin' else :surprised:
 

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why not the JBL GTO1514d? a pair is <250 shipped and look cool and I believe they work well in IB. They are going to be the pair I use for my IB setup.
 
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