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1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
I was wrong on the rca, I was sure the crackles disappeared the other day when I changed it. I must have been really tired to miss it...
Whatever, after long REW session this week end it was clearly back again.

I have it only on few tracks, female voice, and high volume.
But it's very obvious on one especially, even at regular level:
Portico quartet / B&W sessions / November / starts @1:47 / and only on left

So I tried on my home system, I could not hear it, but I can't say it sounded super clean.
With +12db at 4k I could hear it lightly.
Then I opened the file in Audition: signal is clipped in few places on left channel (I tried to declip but no success / newbie on audition)

Do you have an idea why the car tweeter could emphasize this and not the home system?
Too much EQ boost from ms8 at that point? (around 4k)
Just a bad record? (I bought the .wav on B&W society of sound)

224 Posts
I had a similar issue with my ms8, in my case I found lowering the volume on the ms8 from -8 to -15 and then bumping my gains up a little to compensate fixed the issue.

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
Thanks Jesus, will try just now!

Well, it didn't do it.
I turned the input sensitivity at 25% to start (was at minimum).
MS8 ON I had a crazy noise already, I was super gentle on starting, began to hear it at -60db and was obvious at -50db :/
Really strange because on others songs they seem fine, even if I start to get paranoiac now, thinking I hear now new things etc...

Just a note, today I also heard many distortion/clipping with my headphone.
And not only on these track, on many, what the hell??
I may have to check all my library :eek: :laugh:

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Great news, it's not my tweeters! :jester:

Jesus gave me the idea this morning :D
I use iphone and istreamer, so logically I should not be able to adjust volume on the phone since it sends digital signal.
But strange thing, I was always able to with this DAC (never searched about this).

So far I always used the max volume, just with the idea to maximize voltage output. Old habit from when I didn't have external DAC when the phone was plugged directly on ms8.
This morning I tried to lower it a bit, and the crackles disappeared!!!!! Yalaaaaa :laugh:
Even just one step, like 90% did the trick!
Of course I lost few db in the total chain, but I still could increase the ms8 volume to insane level without anything disturbing.
Happy man here :)

I also tried the AUX input setting in ms8, min or max > no effect
I alsways assumed that with iPhone, ms8 and ms amps I would not have to deal with gain etc
I guess I was wrong.

I'll try another DAC soon, the audio engine d1 (with a knob)
this one I know that the phone volume is bypassed.
Just found this about the istreamer:

"The iPod volume control does affect the volume coming out of the iStreamer. By default, it's at the top, so the iStreamer puts out a 2.25 volt signal. But if you need a weaker signal going into your amp, it's great that you can reduce the volume.

At work, my current headphone amp is a portable and the 2.25 volt signal is too strong, causing distortion. Turning down the iStreamer volume a touch eliminates the distortion and the sound is great.

At home, in the bedroom, my integrated amp is 50 watts and my speakers are sensitive (92 dB). If I'm listening very quietly at night, the only way to get the sound quiet enough is to turn down the iStreamer volume.

The iPod is probably just sending a signal to the iStreamer to attenuate the analog output signal. Since the iPod is sending the iStreamer raw data, you can't reduce the "volume" of that data. But you can send extra info along with the data to control the volume once it's been converted into analog sound. It must work that way somehow.


1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
So last week I still had the gb25 in doors and the result was really great to my ears. I just played with XO and levels for few weeks.
Just 2 flaws:
- I am struggling to get something clean on this door panels (and integrate door switch etc, didn't really want to relocate them in the center console for a clean look).
- soundstage was not high enough, even if got better with few weeks playing with ms8. Esthetically I love the tweeters in handles, but it's probably not the best place for stage height.
Would be a great place for the mids, but too big without serious modifications.
So I decided to try some other positions again, and this time measure them, just for confirmation (ms8 bypassed).

Grabbed all small mids I have around: gb25, pioneer Stage 4, some beefy B&W 3" from an old zeppelin, the old stock 2.5" and even my old friend 560 gti (but only in door :p)
All in different places/angles (kick/dash corner/dash oem hole/pillar, while firing up/aimed to me/facing each other etc)
Here we go:

first, all in left door:

The rest will be only pioneer since tulse is interested

All pioneer overlay

Left pillar, aimed to me

left pillar, facing each other

left dash corner oem hole, firing up

left dash oem hole, aimed to me

Left kick

central channel (just in case I wanna destroy my dash one day :D):

Right pillar, aimed to passenger (or me, not sure)

Right pillar, facing each other

Right dash oem hole, firing up

Right dash oem, aimed to me

Right kick

By far the flattest was here:

Ok it's 1/3 smooth but look at that! :eek:
It's probably biased since only the pioneer had a perfect enclosure. For the others I had to play with tape/towels/foam etc to simulate either enclosure or IB.

I was so surprised I wanted to try for a week (that's why they're taped and glued).
But first listenings were really not nice, in fact I hated them.
Too bad because it's much easier to modify the pillars!

I tried without tweeters and it worked, but sounded thin.
It gives a better stage height than in doors, but it's too much in my face.
I think the width suffered, not in boundaries, but in "distribution".
If I continue in this way I'll put the tweeters very close to mids, like in sails.

And I just realized today while driving that the top part of my dash was at the same height than them (symetric bump), creating a barrier in between.
Not sure it's that though.

Next time I'll measure with ms8 ON to compare.

220 Posts
Thank you for posting all those! Some stuff I would not expect. Just goes to show (again) you should do you own testing and listening, with your own divers, in your own car.

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
You're welcome, it's probably not useful for a different car like you said (my windhsield/dash angle is pretty accute), but tendencies should here.
Also I realized that the chase for flat response is just one step, like here to avoid craziest placement, but that's it. Especially with a dsp.
(call me captain obvious? :p)

Next I think I'll install the 4 pairs, door mids&tweeters versus pillar, and swap/calibrate quickly to compare each pair.

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
So after some work on the pillar version
I finally decided to go back to the door mount.

Last work was to re-built the enclosure.
All in fiberglass, few layers without filler for now, and then polyfill and quickly covered with headliner.
I'll re-work later on the finish, for now it's enough.
They're about 0.4 liter

before it was just cardboard and hotglue (a lot) & just 0.2L, it was ok to get the feeling on the placement, and I tried several angles here.
But at the end I just used them flat on the panel, not aimed to me, just same angle than the tweeters.

Now that it is solid, the improvement is massive I was surprised.

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
So now I want to build a midbass enclosure…

Well for few more reasons in fact:
- to integrate the door switch (probably here where they are on previous pics)
- the woofer is actually obstructed and I have sounds going into the panel.
- to get a clean finish
- it's fun :)
So if I have go into all the work, why not an enclosure?

I tried once already, when I had 560&660 in doors. but it was a hell of a job
For this first tentative I tried to make it in two parts.
One filling the holes in the doors, to use the maximum volume I could.
And another part based on the interior of the door panel.
I totally messed up and ended up with this only:

So I just used the fiber panels to "seal" the door holes (in red).

But I have few questions now.
here's the original door:

You can see that is has a good usable volume already (the door itself is almost flat).
So everything under the armrest line is usable, probably around 3 or 4 liters just for the rear part near my hand, but I didn't measure yet.
If I optimize the "inner" fiber-panel, by going into the door the maximum I could, I could maybe add 1 or 2 more liters.
Then the idea is to cut the front triangle of the panel and re-build around the driver to find a few liters again.
If I make it going "into" the cabin or keep it flat to the door panel, like:


But not ported, sealed, and by using the rest of the door panel volume.
So a mix of wood and fiberglass work, then cover the triangle in suede like:

Initially I planned for 4/5 liters, based on their T/S and the manual.
But LBaudio gave me real life feedback on the necessary volume for the 660s to be happy.
And it's closer to 12l. than 4.5, so I'll really try to get the most volume I could
12 will be hard, but maybe 7/8?

So the questions are:
Should I make it independent or included in the door panel?
Integrated would:
- maximize volume use
- be easier to build (I could fiber directly inside the panel)
- panel will be harder to attach, It is only clipped, no screw anywhere, and the added weight will probably destroy the existing plastic things.
when I had both 560 & 660 in my previous custom panel it was super heavy (also super ugly :p)

- would mean a double shell construction (like Gary's one, harder to close/finalize?)
- easier for the mount
- able to add some foam/decoupler everywhere
- probably less volume


1,467 Posts
you can go both ways, depends on your skills. In both casses put a lot of dynamat on doorcards and onto enclosure walls.
If you choose the first plan, than you can bolt doorcard to the door metal from inside of enclosure on few spots, but in that case put some neopren or rubber between door metal and enclosure to prevent rattles.
Maybe you ban also use carbon grill holders to compliment carbon parts on your dash.

good luck with project!

1,467 Posts
you can go both ways, depends on your skills. In both casses put a lot of dynamat on doorcards and onto enclosure walls.
If you choose the first plan, than you can bolt doorcard to the door metal from inside of enclosure on few spots, but in that case put some neopren or rubber between door metal and enclosure to prevent rattles.
Maybe you ban also use carbon grill holders to compliment carbon parts on your dash.

good luck with project!

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
you can go both ways, depends on your skills. In both casses put a lot of dynamat on doorcards and onto enclosure walls.
If you choose the first plan, than you can bolt doorcard to the door metal from inside of enclosure on few spots, but in that case put some neopren or rubber between door metal and enclosure to prevent rattles.
Maybe you ban also use carbon grill holders to compliment carbon parts on your dash.

good luck with project!
I feel like it's a bit over my skills in fact, but I really want to try.
If I plan well the process I might succeed.

Ok for the dynamat & decoupler, in any case I'll have to keep in mind the thickness needed for this.
Either the foam between door and "enclosed" panel, or between enclosure and door panel.
Maybe the "independent" option for the enclosure would make it easier to filter all vibrations to the armrest.

So I'll take time to study all mounting options first.
See where I could add & keep access some new holes in the door.
I'll try to draw something to share my options.

I forgot about the carbon rings! They're a bit too "techy" for me but I'll check if they match.
For protection I could try something minimalist like this on the center part:

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
Checked the volume, with just the stock panel I get 9 liters already!
(and the foam didn't go everywhere)
Even with let's say 10% margin of error it's a good start.

If I add what I can get inside the door by curving the panels in the holes
+ around the driver by moving it a bit into the cabin I'm sure I can go really close to 12L.
That leaves me a good marge for the thickness and damping/decoupler material around.
I'm surprised!

So maybe I could try ported...

About the aiming:
I know at that frequencies it's not important, but can it have an impact on any null effect?
It sounds silly to ask...
But could it change something if I aim them differently than horizontally like actually? More off axis to the front, or slightly aimed over the tunnel (the transmission tunnel is large, but not too tall so few degree will make them fire over it).
Any of these ways would help me to get a cleaner line on the door (It could also give more rigidity to the box I think).

2,204 Posts
I love me those XJR and XKRs so much. Just great cars and really are pretty robust. Always wanted to do a system in one of mine. I think I may have to buy another one. LOL

Love the XKR 100s though. Being only 300 still exist i would have a hard time performing that level of surgery on the doors.

Kudos man, wish i could form panels like that but dont have the time, skill, patience for it.

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
I love me those XJR and XKRs so much. Just great cars and really are pretty robust. Always wanted to do a system in one of mine. I think I may have to buy another one. LOL

Love the XKR 100s though. Being only 300 still exist i would have a hard time performing that level of surgery on the doors.

Kudos man, wish i could form panels like that but dont have the time, skill, patience for it.
Yep, I can use reliable and jaguar in the same sentence! :p
(100kmiles this one, and 120k the other)
Everything is well done, not too much plastic, a lot of leather or vinyl, no rattles etc. well honestly a bit more now since I disassembled it so many times...
That's the only way I hurted it I think, didn't cut the doors, and I have every parts to put it back to stock if I need.
In fact I did it once, but I just couldn't find anything else that I like enough (except an Aston... :laugh:)

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Today I tried to make a copy of the door surface on the other car, to get an idea of the work later.
On the volume/attachments/relation with door panel etc.
Same car, same door, but with much less dynamat and stuff to deal with (and I can keep my sound system while building :p).
(It's a bit hard to be syntethic and not taking an hour to type, so please excuse if it's messy)

So first, one of the issue ont my actual door:

The driver is already really low in the door, but 1cm top is still hidden by the panel (rough cut here).
I can add 1 or 2 cm to go lower and inside the cabin. but not sure it will be enough.
I say that because I want to minimise the work on the external part of the door panel.
For good looking results (by experience :p)
If I can avoid to cut or add some fiber on the outside I'll be glad.
So if you follow me, this means I will have to move lower/more inside the driver, while using fiberglass from the inside of the door panel, to the outside of the new ring of the speaker. Not sure it's clear…
That's why I asked about aiming previously. If i can aim it differently I could save few mm.

Then, here I have a solid point to attach everything (the hole on top right, missing a strong metallic L bracket)
The armrest is fixed here, but the armrest is attached to the door panel somewhere else behind, by below.
So I'll have to create some kind of tunnel in the box, to get to the screws

On the next door, spare panel, cutted, to show some of the oem speaker holes I'll try to reuse to attach the box/panel.

Here just a layer of foam to add some space for later, for any kind of decoupler or dampener I'll want to use.
It also smoothes out the surface, so easier to fiberglass:

Then taped and fibered, just enough to give me an idea.
I'll probably re-do a better one later

Then check on the door panel, where will I have to cut/add some fiber, especially for the last step, coupling of both panels:

A lot of space, and I optimized the maximum:

Maybe about 2 more liters added with the internal poachs.
I grabbed all i could to keep room for any added thickness of the fiber.
About this, what's more important: weight or rigidity?
Because I could use much less fiber if I brace everywhere.

And then just free try to get an idea of how I could mount the driver.

An old K2 destroyed by the couple ms8 & flat battery :D

I don't have so much room behind, maybe 1cm, and the gti is larger, so I'll have to increase the "spacing" for this "triangular" part. a bit more in the cabin.

A detail of the skin:

My experience with vinyl is that it's really not that easy to get a clean finish. So I don't want to recover the entire door.
So I'll try to destroy the actual one the least I can to re-use it.
Should be ok here since it's the bottom. The idea is to glue both panels and recover the corners here.

Next step: MDF

I have no experience on mdf, except with rings.
I'll grab some during the week at home depot probably.
If I can cut it like that, fiber on the oem cover (marroon here) and filler in the gaps.
At the end I'll try to make some kind of clipped cover on this whole front part to simulate a rear-mount of the driver.

Clearly a lot of work, I guess few week ends.
But it seems accessible!

Also something I tried yesterday, the lost foam technic.
I really wanted to avoid to fiberglass the panel so it seemed a good idea for an "independent" enclosure.
I used Joann styro blocks, super easy to use, few minutes gave me this shape:

But finally I don't think it's the way to go.
Too much steps to make it to perfectly match the door, too much lost space at the end, and no obvious solution for the mounting.
Also I would have had to work with epoxy, and I never did that.
The only thing I really like about this technic, is that I could have easily added some rigidity with internal braces (like crossing chopstick everywhere in the foam before I dissolve it for example, if you see what I mean).

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
A little update on the doors, few pics should tell the story:

Finally I'll go the independent way. It was too hard to try to save volume everywhere and save the original door card.
So I cut the panel, on an horizontal line, just below the armrest, and will use mdf as backbone, FG to the cut panel with added depth. (1cm move = 1 or 2 liters added)

The pile of cups were here to help to find the right depth, considering volume needed, global look, and of course practical side like door that still close etc
Since it will be one piece, simple shape, I'm ok to recover it in vinyl or even just acoustic fabric. And I don't plan for the best look, just something ok since i'll have anyway to replace them one day.
I just hope the armrest will cover any ugly thing, the midrange enclosure that sits just upper could help too.
The very front part will need to be clean though.

I have more than 13 L. without the speaker hole that I could easily use.
So depending of the volume used for bracing & FG thickness etc I have room enough I think!

Have to say, I had very great feedback from LBaudio here, many many many good advises, a very nice guy. ;)
His site: Custom Installs | LBaudio or his build threads here should illustrate his level.

Actual basic plan to join and close both parts of the enclosure is to use fleece, then cut flat among the mdf, FG inside, and glue or put filler to close back, then filler outside to clean the lines.

But still studying the questions now, about bracing, mounting holes, rigidity needed etc.
Most of the mounting points will be in front, 4 strong ones around the oem speaker hole, then the L bracket in the middle + others around.
But I'd still really like it to be light, like super light, while keeping priorities for the sound.
So I'm studying any kind of solution:
core mat/honeycomb/aero mat or bracing with mdf/thick cord/FG panels etc

It's hard to find a common agreement on this, most here use mat apparently, to build weight, then strength.
But it seems to me that using a real sandwich would give the same rigidity for much lower weight.
But then what about the effect on sound?

Also I'll probably try ported first, but I'm not there yet.

For now the idea is:

1,999 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
Some news about the door midbass enclosure:
This thing is damn' long to build! I spent maybe 4 or 5 weekends already, only on the right one and it's not finished.
I had to change my plan 5 or 6 times, made a lot of mistakes but at least I learned a lot in the process.
I wanted to end it with some more cloth all around but it's solid enough I don't need and I get tired.
The shape is like the original door panel, just 1.5" deeper in the cabin for the whole bottom part, so a bit intrusive but not too much

But it's just super heavy, more than 5 Kgs without the driver and I wonder if my door will appreciate… I may have to reconsider the attachment points, and reinforce the inner skin.
The original plan was to go ported, Winisd and other online calculators gave me about 10/12L. for ported, or half only for sealed.
But since it's hard to measure cabin gain, and I have a dsp to shape the final curve I wonder if I should still go ported.
Also the port tube itself (2") might be hard to install inside with enough clearance around (should be 2" around the tube too no?). Or could be not compatible with the wool stuff.

I quickly tried to mount everything on the right door, and just listened a bit.
Nothing was adjusted of course, box without the port yet so probably too big for sealed (but is there such a thing?)
And didn't change anything on ms16 but I just couldn't resist.
Midbass only, playing with balance to compare L&R:
The sound is muffled, maybe too much sound absorbant inside, or just the bad settings, or box too big.
But the most impressive was the resonance, or the absence of resonance!
At pretty loud volume, level that I rarely listen to, the left door was crying her mother, bzing boing whoom everywhwere!
On right… nothing! Even louder, just a little ringing on one of the metal bracket that attach the box (temp).
That is really cool!
And a bit disturbing, I thought my doors were ok, not perfect but ok. I think the skin is just not rigid enough.

So I really think I'll continue on this, but ported or sealed… don't know.
Sealed would be much easier, I can find up to 8 liters in the original panel easily.
Just FG the inside of the panel and close with mdf > lighter, much simpler to build, and stealth look.

Any thoughts guys?

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