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Discussion Starter #401
Well to summarize, before there were different specific issues I wanted to fix:
- lack of clarity around 80hz (compared to headset for ex)
- lack of deep low end (first octave)
- Sub in the center caused some right ear "fatigue" (There was really a strong difference between both ears)
- Sub localization (rattles/box resonance)

The new 15" helped with the low end, but in the same time it increased the rattles/resonances.
Here I just have to modify the box, with more bracing, and add some deadening in some places (rear firewall/floor).

It helped also on low end clarity, I guess because of its lower distortion.
The 12" had enough output, but not as clean.

Its new placement, moved to the right, also helped with ear fatigue.

So now I have to work on the sub/midbass xo.
My midbass' are I think too weak around 80hz. I'm not sure and I don't know how to measure or confirm this. The output is here, and the distortion plots are well below 5% there. But I still feel like they don't like to be pushed too low.
Crossed a bit higher they sound better, and I then also get the biggest impact from the sub.
But there's a limit or it becomes too much localizable.

For one week I had the sub on right, tuned with xo at 80hz/24db, same target.
Everything sounded cleaner, everything in front with sub almost not localizable (except for resonances/rattles).
But it was less fun, not the big big impact on drums I had at 120hz.

Yesterday I placed the sub to fire right behind driver seat.
Quickly tuned but will finish today. The seat seems to act as an high pass, would probably help for localization. Also it will be at the same distance for both ears, should help too.
The seat has a hard shell in the back, so I hope it won't be felt too much in my back (1" clearance).
Goal is to move up the xo to find the sweet spot impact/localization.

So I'll know more tonight.
If this doesn't work, I can:
- port the midbass. In theory this should lower excursion near 70/80hz so help a bit. Delay should not be an issue it's only few ms more on winisd.
- or doubling the midbass, 4x8" in 2.5 way, for a very clean output. This would need only minor modifications of my boxes.
- or going for 2x10"... but they won't fit in doors, will need a big job in kicks, I'm not sure I can do it.
 

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4 8s ! Geesh almighty

Ha okay I see what your after now. That seems like a logical approach.
Porting the midbass IMO won't give you much more. I don't think 70hz is where your picking up a lot of excursion it's probably 30-50hz . Even tho you may be crossed high there's still a decent amount of power getting down low. If you apply a 96db crossover at 70hz watch you'll have almost no excursion.... at least that's how it goes for me.
A 96db crossover would sound pretty bad too being -12db down in the 40s still produces some movement in the speaker but more importantly it's low frequency motion tho not very audible definitely helps the harmonics of upper and lower bass blend and I imagine you have some decent low frequency pumping so them boxes have some thump to them.

Adding a port will get you a small bump at 70 but if it's a cabin cancellation it will be bad because than you have to use steep filters to save the speaker. I would tune the port at 45 and you'll get a more flat response and get good power handling. Figure a port is a 24db device in most cases , so 24db at 45hz the port will still have some some output at 50-60hz and a lot more power handling of its sub oactave for the crossover.....that's why I would just do sealed and try a overlapping one oactave filter. Basicly a 6db filter than a second 18db filter applied one oactave past.....in fir of course:) if your using IIR than I would just stay sealed or tune lower than where you need the bump by about 1/2 oactave.


I have a question for you tho. When you do measurements with Dirac do you get any snap crackle pops? During my measurements i am getting some pretty hanus pops and crackles.
Your using digital coax or toslink?
 

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Discussion Starter #403 (Edited)
4 8s ! Geesh almighty

Ha okay I see what your after now. That seems like a logical approach.
Porting the midbass IMO won't give you much more. I don't think 70hz is where your picking up a lot of excursion it's probably 30-50hz . Even tho you may be crossed high there's still a decent amount of power getting down low. If you apply a 96db crossover at 70hz watch you'll have almost no excursion.... at least that's how it goes for me.
A 96db crossover would sound pretty bad too being -12db down in the 40s still produces some movement in the speaker but more importantly it's low frequency motion tho not very audible definitely helps the harmonics of upper and lower bass blend and I imagine you have some decent low frequency pumping so them boxes have some thump to them.

Adding a port will get you a small bump at 70 but if it's a cabin cancellation it will be bad because than you have to use steep filters to save the speaker. I would tune the port at 45 and you'll get a more flat response and get good power handling. Figure a port is a 24db device in most cases , so 24db at 45hz the port will still have some some output at 50-60hz and a lot more power handling of its sub oactave for the crossover.....that's why I would just do sealed and try a overlapping one oactave filter. Basicly a 6db filter than a second 18db filter applied one oactave past.....in fir of course:) if your using IIR than I would just stay sealed or tune lower than where you need the bump by about 1/2 oactave.


I have a question for you tho. When you do measurements with Dirac do you get any snap crackle pops? During my measurements i am getting some pretty hanus pops and crackles.
Your using digital coax or toslink?
Ok, that's kind of why I didn't try porting them before, the gain seemed limited (and totally unsure in real) but glad you confirm.
Especially since I won't cross lower than 80Hz.
The actual acoustic target is [email protected]@24db and I use [email protected]@24 to get there with very limited EQ.
You're right they can push pretty low full range, but I don't think they're still playing that much once filtered.
I tried to add a -12db lowshelf at a lower octave out of the bandpass to see if it changes anything > nope.
(I have only IIIR on the Cdsp)

But anyway, I go a good tune today.
Lowered my gains on the horns, tuned flat for once, then Dirac for the target. It's easier, but also painful for the ears all those highs.
At the end the sub behind me is much more discrete sonically… but I get free massage :p
I'll see for one week, but it's ok I'll rework on the box one day. And will give it more room.
Impact is good, everything is in front now, but there’s room for improvement.

For the 4x8" I checked, and the added left one would fire right into my leg… :/
I guess once you try big cones it's hard to come back.
The only future evolution would be 10 or 12" in front now…


About clipping I got my first today in Dirac too! I didn't hear it at first since I was tuning with earplugs (to try higher volume)
It was a big boost on the right horn, one biquad left even if deleted.
For some reasons the C-dsp sometime keeps some stuff in memory.
It's not visually here, but is definitely acting.
In this case I have to clear/import a new one/clear again to be sure.

Ho and it's coax all the way.
 

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Well to summarize, before there were different specific issues I wanted to fix:

- lack of clarity around 80hz (compared to headset for ex)

- lack of deep low end (first octave)

- Sub in the center caused some right ear "fatigue" (There was really a strong difference between both ears)

- Sub localization (rattles/box resonance)



The new 15" helped with the low end, but in the same time it increased the rattles/resonances.

Here I just have to modify the box, with more bracing, and add some deadening in some places (rear firewall/floor).



It helped also on low end clarity, I guess because of its lower distortion.

The 12" had enough output, but not as clean.



Its new placement, moved to the right, also helped with ear fatigue.



So now I have to work on the sub/midbass xo.

My midbass' are I think too weak around 80hz. I'm not sure and I don't know how to measure or confirm this. The output is here, and the distortion plots are well below 5% there. But I still feel like they don't like to be pushed too low.

Crossed a bit higher they sound better, and I then also get the biggest impact from the sub.

But there's a limit or it becomes too much localizable.



For one week I had the sub on right, tuned with xo at 80hz/24db, same target.

Everything sounded cleaner, everything in front with sub almost not localizable (except for resonances/rattles).

But it was less fun, not the big big impact on drums I had at 120hz.



Yesterday I placed the sub to fire right behind driver seat.

Quickly tuned but will finish today. The seat seems to act as an high pass, would probably help for localization. Also it will be at the same distance for both ears, should help too.

The seat has a hard shell in the back, so I hope it won't be felt too much in my back (1" clearance).

Goal is to move up the xo to find the sweet spot impact/localization.



So I'll know more tonight.

If this doesn't work, I can:

- port the midbass. In theory this should lower excursion near 70/80hz so help a bit. Delay should not be an issue it's only few ms more on winisd.

- or doubling the midbass, 4x8" in 2.5 way, for a very clean output. This would need only minor modifications of my boxes.

- or going for 2x10"... but they won't fit in doors, will need a big job in kicks, I'm not sure I can do it.


I like where you're headed--If you port--I'd Design it with the ability to easily adjust the port length & Id get TWO SETS of ports so you can do experiments with the first, Dial it in with port 2, & use port 3&4 to install. I'd start super long with port 1--I'd set the low end of the fb up to 1/4 octave below free air FS-- then try that out before trimming length bit by bit, listening/measuring & documenting at standard intervals, through the whole range.


By the second time you do it, you should have it narrowed to 3 options. & then after you decide, You still have the last set of ports to cut to your tested length & install!!!

The lower you port, the more the group delay moves down in frequency (& up in amplitude a bit). So if you port to 80 HZ--Sure you'll get Output, but it'll be slow in comparison to the 80HZ bass you'll hear with a 60HZ tune--& it also allows you to use either a shallower xover (maybe 12db VS 18 or 24). Or a lower crossover point. Remember each order you rise in crossovers, you impact both phase as well as raise group delay significantly.

IMO some Folks split hairs pouring over WinIsd worrying about a couple ms group delay difference--but then turn around & slap a 24+db (4th order) or higher crossover on it--Or worse yet--A pair of 4th order crossovers--& many are totally oblivious

I'm on a mission to eliminate the use of subsonic crossovers in my subwoofer builds--I wonder if I'll be able to hear the difference...
 

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I like where you're headed--If you port--I'd Design it with the ability to easily adjust the port length & Id get TWO SETS of ports so you can do experiments with the first, Dial it in with port 2, & use port 3&4 to install. I'd start super long with port 1--I'd set the low end of the fb up to 1/4 octave below free air FS-- then try that out before trimming length bit by bit, listening/measuring & documenting at standard intervals, through the whole range.


By the second time you do it, you should have it narrowed to 3 options. & then after you decide, You still have the last set of ports to cut to your tested length & install!!!

The lower you port, the more the group delay moves down in frequency (& up in amplitude a bit). So if you port to 80 HZ--Sure you'll get Output, but it'll be slow in comparison to the 80HZ bass you'll hear with a 60HZ tune--& it also allows you to use either a shallower xover (maybe 12db VS 18 or 24). Or a lower crossover point. Remember each order you rise in crossovers, you impact both phase as well as raise group delay significantly.

IMO some Folks split hairs pouring over WinIsd worrying about a couple ms group delay difference--but then turn around & slap a 24+db (4th order) or higher crossover on it--Or worse yet--A pair of 4th order crossovers--& many are totally oblivious

I'm on a mission to eliminate the use of subsonic crossovers in my subwoofer builds--I wonder if I'll be able to hear the difference...


Another thing--I didn't double check parameters of your front MIDBASS drivers--So what's the FS of them again? A port is an easy & cheap way to test an alignment out--But Id steer clear of high slopes--IMO most Pro rigs don't use super high orders as a matter of course because,IMO, they sound shitty. I don't even like the sound of most 24db crossovers--almost too steep for me. If you want to kill excursion low, just use a PEQ: problem solved
 

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Lazy123

Elgroso and I don't have to worry about group delay we use fir so it's a non issue

Answer this why would a manufacturer of a midwoofer that's designed to play 100hz to 2khz recommend using a port tuned at 45hz with a FS in the 70s?

Your ideas are good however I don't think anyone is splitting hairs over group delay, it's a serious problem if you don't have a way to correct for it , and if you do have a way to correct for it the less time smear means less dsp power to fix it.

You like shallow slopes because it sounds better , why? Because the time smear is stretched over a lot more area so it's not as audible. Steep slopes sound fine if there made to be linear phase. So by saying you don't like steep slopes is splitting hairs over group delay

For non fir users the LR24 actually summes the best in the time domain so not sure why you wouldn't use it otoh a bw6 has the least time smear all together but still has it and is somewhat noticeable and you run into some serious driver interaction issues
All your advice is great to a non fir user. And I think that's why hardly anyone comments in elgroso and I build pages to try to give advice. It's a whole different ball game.
 

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my faves are 6db & 18db slopes--But Everything depends upon the vehicle & speaker setup--Gotta try different things. I'd much rather introduce a reduction in GDelay by adding a PEQ if I need good adjustment--WAAAAY more adjustable than Crossover--So I can then put steeper crossover lower, & manage transition with PEQ.

So--I said don't worry about LINEAR GROUP DELAY within a couple ms--But your LR24 isnt linear. When I use a LR24, it makes the sound "more artificial" to me & not as effortless, IMO.
 

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How is that scarcastic? Man you get all fired up any time someone talks to you.
You remind me of me about 5years ago but gosh dam. Just because I was talking to you doesn't make what you said wrong. I was explaining that tuning at FS probably isn't The best idea and making a point that would help you. Trying to be friendly of course but whatever , I can't stop you from going crazy with yourself .


And I'm not an asshole I'm a "fir snob" . ;)

I think I'll avoid talking to you from here on out or until you can intellectualize without taking others comments as a personal attack.

When you say thinks like "other folks" and than bring up something that "other folks" just talked about in a previous post and than trample on it and try to one up everyone you'll loose respect. Fast . Believe me I learned the hard way and am just trying to help you.

But it's all good I can avoid you if you don't want to talk. Just avoid the threads I post in and there shouldn't be any issues.

Nonlinear group delay? That's a new term to me. Either phase is flat or not group delay is non linear in a matter strictly of the time domain so it's a double negative. So please enlighten us. :snacks:
 

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But enewayz

So...your getting clipping also. Earplugs. How high up do you have the level in Dirac ?

Yes a louder sweep will get a better tune but you shouldn't need earplugs .

On mine mic gain at 0 and gain at -35db is pretty loud and gains on my amps are all the way down and nothing boosted in the minis. It's loud but shouldn't be ear piercing.

When it's doing sweeps the window at the bottom that shows the sweep should have the magnitude filling as much of the box as possible, once it hits the ceiling it gets red lines in it saying clipping.

All I was saying is it makes a better tune if the box isn't have a itty bitty magnitude that takes up a inci binci little part of the window .

I was definitely getting amp clipping because the magnitude was still very small and it would go red instantly and I could hear a lot of 3khz distortion in right horn .

Pos warned me about inverse filters being hard on drivers. I think I get what he meant now.
It's like the signal level needs to be as close to 0dbfs as possible so you don't loose gain on output from having to turn everything down in the target settings and filter making. So a very good gain structure needs to be implemented that has all the drivers as close to perfect as possible. Like doing a sweep with a horn gain that is too low will cause it to have to use boost and some of that boost in the inverse can be damaging to drivers.

I'll try to find the post he made talking about it over on diy
 

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I've also noticed a couple of the sweeps in certain mic positions have a stronger signal.
Like right forward high and left rear low I know seem to go into clipping and I can't ever get past those two measurements if I'm up too high.

It does something with the power response. I'm yet to find out what bit I'm diggin for answers
 

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Jaguar XKR, Jbl, Audiofrog, Acoustic Elegance & iphone source.

How is that scarcastic?

At the top of your earlier post, you addressed me as "Lazy123"
--not Izay123, as my screen name is on here...

(I guess my attempt at a funny comeback to your adaptation of my screen name flopped) Sorry. I wasn't really fired up about that--I Was just attempting to respond in kind..

Man you get all fired up any time someone talks to you.

You remind me of me about 5years ago but gosh dam. Just because I was talking to you doesn't make what you said wrong. I was explaining that tuning at FS probably isn't The best idea and making a point that would help you. Trying to be friendly of course but whatever , I can't stop you from going crazy with yourself .





And I'm not an asshole I'm a "fir snob" . ;)



I think I'll avoid talking to you from here on out or until you can intellectualize without taking others comments as a personal attack.

I'm usually good at intellectual convos without taking offense, & we can do that in the future: I am undoubtedly more on edge talking to you because our a big part of our exchanges have resulted in misunderstanding.



When you say thinks like "other folks" and than bring up something that "other folks" just talked about in a previous post and than trample on it and try to one up everyone you'll loose respect. Fast . Believe me I learned the hard way and am just trying to help you.



But it's all good I can avoid you if you don't want to talk. Just avoid the threads I post in and there shouldn't be any issues.

I'm not upset; & as long as I don't have to try to determine sarcasm or joking from seriousness, I think we could get along just fine. Honestly



Nonlinear group delay? That's a new term to me. Either phase is flat or not group delay is non linear in a matter strictly of the time domain so it's a double negative. So please enlighten us. :snacks:
Non linear GD was the only term I could think of to describe a Peak in the Gd with the GD absolute value varying with frequency. To me, that's non linear GD...

I don't understand how a peak in group delay where the ms delayed varies with frequency could be nullified by simple time alignment--IMO When the Group delay of a speaker output has no more than 3-4 milliseconds difference between any two points in the Subwoofer's passband, IMO it tunes easier & sounds better.

IMO m Ported subs often have 20-30ms GD spiking at ported freq. It seems non linear to me--But I don't care if we call it different things, as long as we each put in effort to be friendly, like you have been, & im aiming for now...

I guess we miscommunicated a couple times there.. that's all I meant by non linear GD & also how a crossover looks like it has a bigger impact on the delay the closer it is to where the speaker plays.
 

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Discussion Starter #413
Hot in here! Isn't it how friendship start? :p
Well, thx for the comments,

Izay123, I kind of drop the port idea for now.
First because with some more measurements I realized that the midbass' seem pretty clean. Even if I need to do some more at very high volume to confirm.
Also because I really want to stay over 80Hz, probably 100/110Hz to get full impact from the sub (in my configuration), so port would not help here.
But about the delay added Oab’ is right I don't really care, unless it becomes crazy as I don't know Dirac limits here.

About the slopes, I can enjoy shallower when I try on midbass/sub (talking acoustic slope here).
Even if I think i's more about the fullness of the sound coming then from 3 corners, fixing some dips etc.
But I do prefer now the cleaner sound without too much overlap, so 24db, and the sub is much easier to forget.
A Dirac 8 channels might make me re-consider this though.




Oabeieo,
Yeah earplugs but for REW. Since I tuned flat it was really too hot, especially for 1hr.
Tried higher in Dirac too, my usual is -30db / mic gain at 0, but here I tried -25db and mic slightly over.
I really didn't hear any difference (no need for earplug here).
One of the issue is that if I tune during daytime I have too many outside noise.
And this is definitely seeable on the amplitude window below, gets all messy instead of sharp.

But ok I'll try to maximize this amplitude, makes sense.
The clipping I got came from a zombi-biquad :D, a +10db bug from the Cdsp.
Although it only appeared when I measured top/right/front on right driver, so really close to it, I guess Dirac have some margins.
The Umik accepts way more than 100db I beleive right?

The gain structure yeah I need to study this more (I keep syaing that :D).
For now gains are low but not at mini, and target low too so I rely on that.
Only the sub/midbass' are getting quite some boost (like 10db) near the XO.

Anyway I'm not happy with yesterday's tune, after some more time, impact is meh.
Now that I think of it, I lowered the midbass gain too in the same time, and I don't think I should have…
On horns it was necessary, I still had some little noise.
 

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Discussion Starter #414
OMG
Forget about my last comment
I just had one of my best drive! I don't know what I did this morning but I think I messed up my settings (betwene dsp and ddrc)
And honestly I’m not totally sure I found the right one back, the one I tuned yesterday.
But what I had was awesome!
Enjoyed Brubeck "take five" Legacy 4 times, loud and clear, the drum on left, min 3 to 4... never heard my left midbass like that, the one I always thought was the weakest... almost crush my teeth!
What an experience! Damn’ this horny story is so good! :p
 

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Re: Jaguar XKR, Jbl, Audiofrog, Acoustic Elegance & iphone source.

Non linear GD was the only term I could think of to describe a Peak in the Gd with the GD absolute value varying with frequency. To me, that's non linear GD...

I don't understand how a peak in group delay where the ms delayed varies with frequency could be nullified by simple time alignment--IMO When the Group delay of a speaker output has no more than 3-4 milliseconds difference between any two points in the Subwoofer's passband, IMO it tunes easier & sounds better.

IMO m Ported subs often have 20-30ms GD spiking at ported freq. It seems non linear to me--But I don't care if we call it different things, as long as we each put in effort to be friendly, like you have been, & im aiming for now...

I guess we miscommunicated a couple times there.. that's all I meant by non linear GD & also how a crossover looks like it has a bigger impact on the delay the closer it is to where the speaker plays.
AAh no worries.
Well and actually I got what you meant the first time I was b a bit snotty and I would much rather be friends than go down the duschery road. So sorry also :)

So Basicly your right GD peaks like ones from a port or from a bad crossover alignment or and applied Eq will cause some sort of GD or time smear .

An FIR filter actually moves all the phase of everything else so that everything is time coherent. And can be shaped exactly to whatever anomalies in time you want. So it's a bit more than just delay. So let's say your port has a 25ms peak, you would need enough taps that have a IR length that would be equal to 25ms so roughly 4800 taps (96k) or an FFt equal to around 13,000 +\- (guess there but close) and it would be able to achieve 25ms and Basicly add 25ms delay to everything else except the peak. Software like rephase or accorite or Dirac live do this and than you need a convolution engine (minidsp ddrc or HDs or minisharc)
This is a great explanation of FIR , the more common type of filter is an IIR

If you like 1st order filters you would love love FIR filters .

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering
 

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OMG
Forget about my last comment
I just had one of my best drive! I don't know what I did this morning but I think I messed up my settings (betwene dsp and ddrc)
And honestly I’m not totally sure I found the right one back, the one I tuned yesterday.
But what I had was awesome!
Enjoyed Brubeck "take five" Legacy 4 times, loud and clear, the drum on left, min 3 to 4... never heard my left midbass like that, the one I always thought was the weakest... almost crush my teeth!
What an experience! Damn’ this horny story is so good! :p
Oh man that's crazy I had tuner fatigue bad last night too ! I thought my drive to work was going to say is the stereo was going to be probably sounding Crappy got in and it was very nice no clipping at all ..... sometimes sitting in the car listening to noise can make me go bonkers
 

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Discussion Starter #417
Agree yep,
But now I'm still going nuts... I can't sync to check which tune it was.
I'm too dumb, for some reasons I must have played with the soft after, out of sync.
And now if I sync again I'll overwrite evrything,no way to get it back from the dsp to the laptop... Rhaaaa!
 

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Agree yep,
But now I'm still going nuts... I can't sync to check which tune it was.
I'm too dumb, for some reasons I must have played with the soft after, out of sync.
And now if I sync again I'll overwrite evrything,no way to get it back from the dsp to the laptop... Rhaaaa!
Oh I HaTE it when that happens ugh!!
Or I save something as horn and over rite it as mid .

So I'm positive Dirac filters clip the signal now if the magnitude isn't within about 6db. A pretty good pre tune is a absolute necessity. I think I've solved my clipping issues now for good. I was thinking as long as I'm setting a target under its 0db line it won't use boost well that's 0dbfs not 0db. It's normalized and even says it on the screen so if I draw my target anywhere above any of the "all before" it in fact does add boost. It brings everything up to 0dbfs which is the absolute max in the digital world. Can't boost past 0dbfs or massive clipping starts. So the only way to get a really really good tune would be to have as flat as possible magnitude responce so that no part of the "all before" is too low.
So that's a test signal and I don't know it's crest I'm assuming it's about 3 to 6db as is most signal generators. But I don't know so I'm going to have to hook up a scope and test. If music has a transient louder than the test signal guess what, yep the closer you get to 0dbfs the more shit will clip. So any erratic changes in magnitude could cause a boost if set wrong and if set right won't leave enough gain to get enough useable output meaning system will loose a lot of signal to cutting. Inverse filters are a bitch. So tomorrow I'm going to spend some quality time with good old fashioned RTA and get shit flat than tune. I've just haven't (still) because Dirac does such a good job at it. But it really is important now. Use eq cuts on output and save precious digital headroom

I got a much better tune but tomorrow I'm going to make the end all (for this week ) tune.
 

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Re: Jaguar XKR, Jbl, Audiofrog, Acoustic Elegance & iphone source.

I don't understand how a peak in group delay where the ms delayed varies with frequency could be nullified by simple time alignment--
That's the thing, what he(and a few others around here) is using isn't "simple" time alignment. Think of it an more like an EQ, but for time, and with thousands of adjustment points.

You should do some reading in the DIRAC and APL threads, fascinating stuff.
 

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Or the 2x4HD minidsp. And also download rephase it's freeware that you can play with and see for yourself how to make such corrections and use it.

You could also download the trial version of Dirac but you have to have audio go through a laptop during trial but it's at least able to get an idea how powerful these things are.

Fun stuff ....complicated and deep into the rabbit hole but fun indeed
 
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