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Discussion Starter #581
Holy mackerel, sand.

That would make one hell of a strong box.
I never thought of that. Heavy I'm sure but dang if someone needed to build up a corner .......



—————…………

:thinking2:


So the 10s will you vent them to the outside as a tuning option.
Build it in to the design and make a cap.

So when you want to try a speaker with a little low EBP or something you have an option
Not these ones, just sealed. I didn't cut to the exterior, only to get a bit more volume and fit the rings where I needed.
I'll see first how it works like that.
But yeah I can see the day when I'll cut more ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #584
Thanks guys, yes I have big hope!
If boxes are really too small, even with an LT, I might try ported.
It seems I have enough room on top for a tube, even a bit longer, with a 180 return to fire down.
In theory it doesn't change that much the response in the bandpass I want, but a lot on excursion.
 

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Thanks guys, yes I have big hope!
If boxes are really too small, even with an LT, I might try ported.
It seems I have enough room on top for a tube, even a bit longer, with a 180 return to fire down.
In theory it doesn't change that much the response in the bandpass I want, but a lot on excursion.
Driver with lowish vas, low EBP, and high qts should play decently low (sealed), add a compressor so it doesn't shit the bed when cranked up, (kinda like a loud feature) and be transient as hell.

And the kicks....idk I would find a use for it somewhere, I wouldn't abandon it just yet. The kicks might fight you at some frequencies as well, and the doors might be all you need to fix....


Either way, it will be dam good. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #586
Ok boxes done, ready to go for the first tests!










I added few 2/3 layers of mat inside where needed, and 2/3 layers of cloth outside.
+ a lot of putty in corners, from different density just to be sure it's sealed, and cleaned for my fingers…
Then wrapped the front in carpet.

Good news they still fit :p
I could have increased the thickness a bit I have room.
If I restart I’ll know how to build them for a slightly bigger volume.

Bad news…. I punched one cone :/
On the left one, I had to install the box without the driver (I knew it) so it could go around the brake pedal first (pedal that I think I could cut...).
Then driver install, got 1mm clearance exactly at the dust cap.
But of course I underestimated the f***g hell to mount this guy in this space!
6 screws were ok, but the 7 & 8th ones gave me a lot of trouble, and of course Murphy was around…
Well it's a tiny hole, probably won't change anything to the sound.
But I'll soon fix it with light glue just to be sure it doesn't get worst.




Had to install the minis, the full body won't fit anymore.
Here I messed up again, I really thought I could but I forgot about the wires that I pushed around for the kicks.
Not such a big deal but I wanted to try 2 way only.

Re-routed everything to the amps and added some wires, so first step will be:
- front minis on hd600 (over 1500Hz for now)
- midranges in doors on hd600 (300-1500 to start)
- midbass on hd750 each (50-300)
- subs on hd1200, but they are not re-installed yet, I think I'll wait, it's already a lot of changes to digest right now.

Tomorrow will be the first tuning session, but I quickly listened a bit of course (no levels all gains at mini, no TA, nothing, all at 0).
1st feeling, the 10s are waaaaayyy too loud, had to lower by 15db to get something reasonable :p
Being 4 ohms they really don't need the 750hd, and the mids being 8 ohms are now too low in comparison.
I might get a new hd600 for the 10s, or keep the 750 if I wanna test some Linkewitz Transform.

It seems they play very low, but not clean down low. A bit like the 8s, full range they can go low, but it's just not nice.
Impact is here, but without TA it's hard to judge.
I didn't feel anything bad on resonances or vibrations on the floor, and this is without the floor carpets that I need to cut now.
But sure they will need a lot of EQ, it's not very clean.

The minis seem less strong than the full size, I will have to re-adjust myself here, also they have half the power than before.
Oh but I forgot, I changed the drivers too here, for some faital 148r, that I got for a faire price and always wanted to test.

So after few adjustments it was listenable, played a bit with different XO and finished on what is listed upper.
The bmx8 are really good drivers, low to 100 or up to 2k they give a very nice feeling.

Tomorrow starts the long journey of tuning!
 

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Discussion Starter #589
A750/1 on each 10 :surprised:

Jimminychristmas - that's going to be a lot of unused power but a lot of headroom as well.

I would keep the 750s for coolness factor, but dam!
:laugh:
They were for the 8 ohms before but yeah that’s a lot.
At least the lack of power is out of the equation :p
The bmx might need more than 25V later, if so maybe I’ll change for 2 hd600 bridged, for both 8 and 10.
If not I'll keep it like that.
Also the new cdsp 8x12 with its new voltage out might change my needs.

Here's my handy power sheet:





So this morning I removed them to fix the left cone. I know if I don't do it right now I may never fix it.
The hole is very small, and I was able to bring the little paper lip from behind, one drop of glue and go.
(I figured wood glue to be good for paper cone?)
Will change the mms, and maybe even the distortion shape of the cone but I'm pretty sure it will be completely unnoticeable.






In the mean time I ran some sweeps to check on the acousta stuff filling with the Dayton tool.
Fully filled (125g) the FS is around 130Hz, Qts of 0.5, smooth impedance.
Empty, FS is around 150Hz, Qts of 0.65, still smooth impedance.
These numbers suggest I have 0.25 cuft/7 liters, about what I thought.
More about 6 L. once the driver's in.
I would need 10L. at least to make a significative difference.

I'll go empty at first, so re-installed them, but much more carefully this time.
Protected the driver, and taped my little tool.
See the space to work with here, and the worst placement for the top screw.







Than ran one sweep for the right side to compare filled/empty (20-5K / no XO / no EQ / nose point / dsp at -30db / gain at mini):



Really just the same.
I added the "towel" measurements to compare
The towel used another amp so levels are not matched, I moved it up a bit to make it more clear.
But we can see the box effect on the low end.
And probably the effect of the horn in front, I don't think I could use the 10 very high they are partially masked now.
It starts to be a little crowded in here :p

 

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Holy crap, okay you will have a ton of midbass ,
Looking that responce man honestly I would go for a BW6 at 40hz on those 10s or better yet no HPF , but with the 750 loaded up maybe you'll have to be around 50 and a steep slope so you don't pop them bitches right out of the gap

And it now looks bigger than before , that pic on seat shows it's got some good size for sure.

my 10s look a awful lot like that and they have 1.1cu ea
So I know your talking liters but that's Chinese to me

Or something silly like that​
Okay so I'm definitely jealous now
 

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Im astonished you have that kind output from 10s sealed. Like holy crap.

Random Q, what size speaker wire are you running to those 10s? With the 750(?) on tap. id run large wires for peace of mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #592
Some notes after this first day of tuning:
Awesome, I'm glad I went this way, it works!
I'll try to not speak too much as every time I change something it feels really great like the ultimate tuning etc
And then few days/weeks after I start to hear the bad side.
Plus I didn't have my system for a while now, so it';s hard to compare but I like these fresh re-starts.

So basic TA, XO, first pass on EQ, gains.
Needs more EQ, It's far from final tuning but I have something I can listen to for this week.
And Dirac is not in the loop yet, I'll bring it later once it's clean enough, for the "Coup de grâce" ;)




I finally went with 60/250/1800 acoustic, it kind of naturally called for it.
With symmetric filters for now, being 50-300 / 250-2200 / 1800+, all @24db.
1800Hz is a bit high for the 8", but I like how they sound.
With the next 6" or 5" it should get easier.

I feared to lose on stage width but no it didn't change anything so far, same boundaries.
The minis are at the same place than the full body, so I'll probably lose just a little bit of depth.
And the 8 now play higher, bigger sense of space.
Nothing special about the supposedly "stronger" crossfire of the minis that everybody describes.
I noticed a little more high ends than before, could be the minis, the drivers, or just my brain!
The console is not re-installed yet, in fact I'm not sure I will, I might work on something with just a light cover.
I'd like to move the seat to the center too, just 1 or 2 inches if I can (don't know how yet).

The 10s, well they hammer, it would be totally acceptable to go subless, even HP at 50Hz.
TA brought back the big impact, impact that once the sub's here will be awesome I'm sure.
FR is good now, phases not perfect.
If I can get the same than when the sbp15 was playing high right behind my face I'd be proud and happy, seems reachable!

During tuning I was surprised by some high distortion around 200Hz.
But once EQed it disappeared, before/after:




Maybe box size effects, boxes wall?
And there is still something strange down low, I think it's the floor.
Without HP it's not clean enough yet. If I cut them a bit higher like 60/70hz it gets better. I will study this a bit more.
Maybe I need even more CLD again (I have 2 or 3 layers now), or something heavier, plus foam, a lot.
Are lead sheets safe to use in the cabin?

But it might be something else because my naked feet didn't catch a lot of vibrations, just a little.
Box knocking on the wall, or entire dash vibrations?
They are not especially attached right now, they just lock themselves into the firewall cut I made.
They won't move around but maybe they vibrate. Glad I kept some clearance to add more foam.

Well, still a lot of work!
 

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Discussion Starter #593 (Edited)
Holy crap, okay you will have a ton of midbass ,
Looking that responce man honestly I would go for a BW6 at 40hz on those 10s or better yet no HPF , but with the 750 loaded up maybe you'll have to be around 50 and a steep slope so you don't pop them bitches right out of the gap

And it now looks bigger than before , that pic on seat shows it's got some good size for sure.

my 10s look a awful lot like that and they have 1.1cu ea
So I know your talking liters but that's Chinese to me

Or something silly like that​
Okay so I'm definitely jealous now

Yeah the black carpet made them look bigger, but once installed they’re not disturbing (well to me :p).
And even better, the left corner can be used as footrest!
I tried no HP, but I have other issues you’ll see.
Boxes are 0.25 American cubic foot I think :D.

Maybe your 10s response came from the fact that they’re behind? But in any case, if not ported these guys can’t really shine down low.
You’re right I need to not forget to at least keep a minimal HP, in case I reach full power. On simulator, in such a small box they only need bw6 at 10Hz at 500W, so probably never...




Im astonished you have that kind output from 10s sealed. Like holy crap.

Random Q, what size speaker wire are you running to those 10s? With the 750(?) on tap. id run large wires for peace of mind.
My bad, after check the gain on the 750 was not a minimum.
Maybe 3 or 6 db more than at zero then.
About the wires, good point, I think I have 14 or 16 awg from knuconceptz but not sure.
I’ll check, but I’ll change my sub ones now that you reminded me thx.
If I feel like it I’ll put 12 everywhere to be done once and for all.
 

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Wow that's crazy you say that.
That almost exactly where my tens are crossed when I do run my sub.
IIR bw6 at 15hz

What's very weird about the 10s is I play them all the way through FS and it sounds totally fine in every way. No breakup at all or crazy spitty sounds.

Your totally making me want to do a full blown re do of everything.

sometimes I wish I wasn't so dam hung up on two seat.
The ambiance is so easy with two seat but that mean impact can be difficult.



Oh you will definitely get quite the crossfire from minis, it's too early in the game for you to see that and you even recognized that, which is true.

But some mini installs work great and the right side isn't overpowering at all,
In big wide trucks there perfect. My right horn is usually 10db louder than the left , and I sit on the left.

I don't know if you have done any left right eq but you'll see 2.5k-12k are usually way way louder if there's a lot of PLD (over 8") but if your dash and listening angle are kinda far from you it may not do that at all.


Shit Dave I'm super jealous, I'm thinking all night and going to do something different.


So 1.8k cross on horns. I love it! I bet it's great,
What cd you using now? Es driver?
 

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Discussion Starter #595
Wow that's crazy you say that.
That almost exactly where my tens are crossed when I do run my sub.
IIR bw6 at 15hz

What's very weird about the 10s is I play them all the way through FS and it sounds totally fine in every way. No breakup at all or crazy spitty sounds.
Yeah most of the pro 10s I simulated looked the same, just these beymas were a little on top, and 4 ohms and available.
And sure their FS is 60 or 70Hz, but 30 to 150 once in the box, and no issue.
What size are your boxes?



Your totally making me want to do a full blown re do of everything.

sometimes I wish I wasn't so dam hung up on two seat.
The ambiance is so easy with two seat but that mean impact can be difficult.
I think I never tuned for 2 seats! Or maybe when I had the ms8 it was easy enough.
One day I’ll tune for the passenger seat, just to see if she can hear the difference I hope not or I would have to continue :p)



Oh you will definitely get quite the crossfire from minis, it's too early in the game for you to see that and you even recognized that, which is true.

But some mini installs work great and the right side isn't overpowering at all,
In big wide trucks there perfect. My right horn is usually 10db louder than the left , and I sit on the left.

I don't know if you have done any left right eq but you'll see 2.5k-12k are usually way way louder if there's a lot of PLD (over 8") but if your dash and listening angle are kinda far from you it may not do that at all.
Ok then I’ll try to be attentive here. The tune is halfway so it’s hard to judge.
I have a hard time to figure out the pattern control of these horns (even the full body for that matter).
I keep reading about it but it's not super clear, I think I need something visual, like a 3d.
Hard time to imagine/visualize it since it's frequency dependent.
I know you started to study building your own, I hope you didn't put the idea on hold, I'm super curious too.

The PLD is about 12" on the horns, but is it that important for 1 seat TA?
I can imagine that it is, for the off axis and late reflections coherence.
I might try again to push them further, I didn't last week end, just wanted something to play.


Shit Dave I'm super jealous, I'm thinking all night and going to do something different.

So 1.8k cross on horns. I love it! I bet it's great,
What cd you using now? Es driver?
Haha so what's the new plan?
You already butchered your dash you can rebuild your floor too! :p

CDs are the Faital HF108r. I really didn;' have any good reason to get them expect the price and for personal learning.
Later I'll swap back the ES.


Tonight I re-installed two of the subs, fine-tuned a bit my TA and levels.
Wanted to change EQ but I'm too tired and started to mess things up.
So I just listened for a while and enjoyed.

Subless or Sub, it's impressive how they add little and a lot in the same time.
I mean they mostly play the first octave, and not super loud since they're only 2x10, but it really adds some texture, a sense of realism.

Also the 10s are a real pleasure to tune now, seems it's all minimum phase, super easy to EQ and integrate with the subs!
Higher with the mids it will be a little harder, I think they have a natural high pass, maybe the combo dash/horn and small volume with my legs.
They became super sensitive to any xover applied.

Horns, if not good enough yet, seems smooth. I don't think I'll have to EQ a lot once I'll have the right XO (playing between low & steep or high & shallow).
But the right level might be hard, I started to adjust by ear more than by measurement.
I don't know if it's the minis, but it's harder than before.

I always wanted to measure the polar response of the horns, if I have time maybe I'll try.
Also I have in mind to test a new process for the pre-Dirac tuning, not well defined yet, but the polar would help.
 

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The best two seat tunr ive heard was with a center channel and pro logic2. It really did sound quite good. Worth it in both seats

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
 

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Look at the radiation angle of the horn.
That will give you an idea of how the pattern will emit.

Than think about the shape of the horn mouth.
Being it's shaped long on one side and short on the other makes the sound want to go out in all directions except the x axis. So basically the sound goes up streight and down.

That combined with the angle of the horn will dictate its pattern in a more visual way.
So, a shit ton of energy is thrown sideways, that makes the opposite side louder (and have a different frequency responce) but think about the driver side horn as well, it's shooting sideways also, and your right ear picks up a lot of that energy. So your right ear pics up a LOT of sound from the passenger and driver horn. That plays off ITD/IID so it forces a center from both sides. As long as the PLD is low on midbass it should image good on both sides as is no TA.

Not sure if that makes sence but it does to me :)
 

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Discussion Starter #598 (Edited)
First, you said you had 10db more on right than left,
is it at one point of measurement? or avg?

On mines they measure really similar, for 1 or 8 pts.
But by ears I think that right is louder, or more «*broaded*» if it says something.
Maybe I should use different placements for the mic, more «*masked*» by my head for the left side. Because the left ear can’t catch what the mic catches.


And then, long post here hold on :p

Look at the radiation angle of the horn.
That will give you an idea of how the pattern will emit.

Than think about the shape of the horn mouth.
Being it's shaped long on one side and short on the other makes the sound want to go out in all directions except the x axis. So basically the sound goes up streight and down.

That combined with the angle of the horn will dictate its pattern in a more visual way.
So, a shit ton of energy is thrown sideways, that makes the opposite side louder (and have a different frequency responce) but think about the driver side horn as well, it's shooting sideways also, and your right ear picks up a lot of that energy. So your right ear pics up a LOT of sound from the passenger and driver horn. That plays off ITD/IID so it forces a center from both sides. As long as the PLD is low on midbass it should image good on both sides as is no TA.

Not sure if that makes sence but it does to me :)

Yeah I get the basic picture, but I'd like to see it more in details, like a shape with energy levels.
Thinking about something like:

http://www.audioxpress.com/article/Understanding-Horn-Directivity-Control.html

So high directivity on the horizontal plane and less on the vertical plane.
And more directivity on the long side than on the short side.
So I guess almost a triangular shape.

And what would be the effect of towing/rotating the minis?
If they’re designed to crossfire at the center console, it might quickly get worst.
Either by moving the cross point closer to our head, or by indirectly messing with their off axis response (to the windows, disturbing the dash joint?)

Hard to see something similar online since most of the horns measured are home ones, square or round, but not triangular.
The most originals I found are the Iwatas or the jmlc like:



I didn't find any asymmetric horns as example.



So, short side / long side, can we assume that it will just give a mix of the polar response of a short horn and a long wall?

I draw this to explain (not focusing on the FR or lenght here, just the general idea):



Trying to mix short and long mouth, at the bottom in red.
Can we assume it's the kind of horizontal response we have?


Based on the way we mount our horn, its central axis being aligned with the center of the car,
this would mean that there's not much energy toward the central/front part of the dash/console horizontally.
And a little more spreaded to the doors/windows, even of it's probably at a much lower level.
Just conjectures here, but it's the kind of thing I want to know.


There's a great post from Steve_B on http://forum.speakerplans.com/constant-directivity_topic49603_page1.html

A horn is simply a 3D object that constrains the expansion of sound waves.
To realise how they work it is useful to think of sound waves as a series of bubbles. Low frequencies with long wavelengths are big bubbles and high frequencies with short wavelengths are small bubbles.
If a bubble travels down a horn (or waveguide), as long as the cross sectional area is smaller than the bubble then the bubble is constrained, or controlled, by the horn. With a traditional exponential horn the angle between the horn walls is constantly increasing the further from the throat you get. Once the cross section of the horn is larger than the bubble, the bubble loses contact with the walls and it no longer sees the horn. Larger bubbles have to travel further down the horn before they stop seeing the horn and therefore the wall angle is wider. As the bubbles get smaller (higher frequencies) they see a horn with a narrowing angle between the walls. This causes a narrowing of the dispersion pattern with increasing frequency.
A constant directivity horn has straight walls. The angle between them therefore remains constant and the dispersion pattern remains constant over the usable bandwidth.
The bandwidth is set at the lower end by the mouth dimensions. Where the wavelength of the sound is larger than the mouth dimensions the horn has little control over directivity. The upper frequency limit is set by the dimension of the compression driver exit. Once the wavelength is smaller than the throat diameter the sound doesn’t see the horn and it is only influenced by the compression driver.
By modifying the acoustic radiation resistance the diaphragm sees, the horn can influence the power output and efficiency of the drive unit. However, all drive units, cone and compression, have an upper response frequency above which the power output falls at 6dB per octave. The on axis sensitivity is usually maintained above this frequency because increasing directivity concentrates the power into an increasingly smaller area. By maintaining a constant directivity, the on axis response more accurately follows the power response. This is the reason corrective eq is used to flatten the response. The horn doesn’t actually change the power response as such but as stated in other posts, the power is spread out more. A good CD horn can require in excess of 12dB boost above 10KHz.*

Also, looking at the full bodies, they seem built like two horns combined (not the minis).
First section being near symmetrical, with flat and almost symmetric walls, so constant directivity.
Second section being asymmetrical, with variable cross section shape (the "thicker" part in the middle) so variable directivity per wavelength and angle.

Still wrapping my head around what it does per FR/wavelength exactly :p
Maybe I should post all my questions on the HCLD forum to catch Eric!


Edit: fixed links
 

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Yeah you get it!

Sorry I have never been good at describe and I hate the time it takes to do screenshot, although I wish so much I had the time for it . I think I would be much more understood sometimes:p

So, the minis don't play as high , so they don't need as much expansion,
Eric explained it once and I get most of what he said, Patrick Bateman has sim from hornresp on here in places as well, I don't know if he added the flare and such.

But you got the long and short of it for sure.....
And yes I want to learn more about that as well. I read a book a whole le back about horns and directivity, pattern control, modulation & propagation. A ton of math that I don't care too much to dive into, but I wish I still had that book. Well it was more like a folder than a book but still.

But yeah the full size have a flare to accommodate the lower frequencies. The corners closest to console having the largest opening. If you think about that, it should move the wave front to come out more evenly forward and still maintain the flare rate for the lowest frequency... that's why you want to mount them firing streight forward not toe in.
The mini still has a flare it's just more at the lip. In my own experience I like the mini crosssed at 1.6-2k , 2k/12db or 1.6k/24db .....I just like the way it sounds better. Why?,
I think it's because of less needs for proper termination The wave is developed inside the horn and as it exits the last few inches of the mouth and the flare do the termination for me., if the horn isn't terminated it will snap and pop and sound harsh from hi pressure to low pressure without time to slow down. Putting foam around the mouth helps that as well.

Even tho the horn when mated to a dash can load even lower than the horn can, I like the way it sounds not going below what the horn can load on it's own. A good midrange will be able go that high and have a much better blending area where none of the waves are freaking out at there origins.

So yeah they'll measure there overall responce together good. The sum should create a center even tho one side is stronger. But stronger to only one ear.
It's not the entire passband that is louder, it's more like 8-16khz is a lot louder, but again, depending on mounting angle and TA it could be made to not be any louder at all. You'll notice the addded energy , even tho both have a perfect L/R frequency responce (thx Dirac) the opposite side will still sound a bit louder with minis more than full size. Full size are so much easier to get right. The mini with a slightly more forward angle like the full size would be a bomb setup with streight entry. At least it make sence that it would, probably not by much tho.

And yes single mic location.

I'll try and remember that tile, I'll have to do some searching to see if I can find what it was. Pretty good read,

Your article was good, I enjoyed it. They talked mostly about LF directivity loss.
I want to try and find an article more about pattern forming and horn shapes.

I think I've read something similar but that too also reinforces my idea of a taller horn that would be better on axis. It's time to fully learn hornresp
 

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Have you ever noticed when you eq down the horn the crossover gets extended by means of the sound power. And have you even had them crossed (minis especially) kinda low and just way way way too much 1kz oactave is trying to come out of the horn. That's what I don't like, it's a power imbalance if I were to guess, and it makes music sound like it coming from FM radio or something. Even tho it sounds good, after a while of listening it kinda sounds crappy , like you can really tell it's streaming from a phone or like it's a crappy fm channel or like a am stereo. I don't know what it is with car horns and trying to get them to play low, sure with some trance music the low can sound really dynamic and be cool for a day but overall all songs all artists and all sources sound good....I can get a much much better more real sounding tune crossed higher, and that will play all kinds of music and not have the horn sound too loud.

Right now I'm crossed at 2khz/12db q.707 and the mid 1.6khz/48db-LR (6db down at1.6khz). It's been a favorite combo fora long long time. Multiple installs multiple locations, all around great sounding with minis attached.

So your 1.8k acoustical I bet sounds dope. It's right where that horns wants to get loud and not freak out

My minis/mids also have a 3db low/hi shelf at 800hz Q.05 only because acoustically with the horn eq down its acoustical cross is more like 1.4k,
Being my horn has that extra low end it makes my fir not accurate so it has chance of some minor ringings? So I added a 1st order iir filter in the fir and it moved the phase back to 0. Works excellent!

I love that the amount of energy is not being emitted from my underdash more than I like good mouth termination, but that's just me, for you you have a low dash to help you out, I have a sheet of glass :shame:
 
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