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. . . I will be getting an MS-8 as well to test it against the bit one.1... ;)
In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.
 

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In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.
Can you elaborate on how speaker placement positively or negatively affects the performance of the auto tune function? What locations would be optimal?
 

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Can you elaborate on how speaker placement positively or negatively affects the performance of the auto tune function? What locations would be optimal?
The particular car I mentioned in my post has a 3-way system up front, with the tweeters mounted in the center of the dash, within about 12 inches of each other, firing on-axis toward the center of the vehicle. My guess is that in such a configuration the output from both tweeters are overlapping thus making it difficult for the auto tune system to clearly determine that there are 2 separate speakers, playing in 2 different channels. As a result, a solid center image could not be obtained in this vehicle.
 

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You touched on a couple things here that I meant to address...

In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. ...If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his.
Initially I was going to get the ms-8's curve to reflect my final, manually tuned, curve. Then I thought about it a bit and realized "whats the point". Right?
For one to TRULY give an apples comparison you'd have to mimic, to a 't', the DSP effects. When you're talking about phase, t/a, etc there's so many ways to get the same overall curve. A simple example is to take your setup, change the crossover slopes, and then EQ to get the same response. It will not sound the same: period. There's just about no way for me to do the exact same thing since I don't have access to the t/a or phase... and that's just the minimum things I'd need.
I mentioned that I might throw the ms-8's outputs on my RTA and measure the FR of the preouts, but I'd only do so just for my own curiosity to see what the EQ curves look like.
Although I don't have the knowledge most do of how DSP's work, I do have a basic understand of the relationship of phase to t/a, crossover slopes, and EQ bands. I know enough to know that I can't replicate my bitone settings. So, there's no point in bothering. Therefore, there's NO way I can say that the ms-8 is better than the bitone. I can only give subjective opinions on it's ability to auto tune a system vs. my own ability to tune.



I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process.
This is where we'll just have to see how it plays out. I tell you one thing, I've re-tuned my system via the auto-tune 8 times now. I've been experimenting with head position, having a second person in the car with you, and a few other things to see just how much the tune changes, if at all.
Right away I can say this: the degrees you turn your head during the 'look toward x mirror' will effect the staging.
The great thing about the ms-8 is that it allows you to try these kind of things on your own VERY quickly due to it's ability to auto-tune in less than 1 minute for a single seat position and it'll keep the user applied curve if you choose to do any after-EQ. So, you can compare 'oranges to apples' with apples only. Wait... does that make sense? ;)

What I'm getting to is this: I'm realizing that the odds of everyone's car sounding 'the same' is hardly realistic. User 'error' will dictate results just as much as vehicle acoustics. However, there's surely a line where all cars exhibit the same type of response if they do the auto-tune and leave it alone. I'm willing to bet that all the cars would have the same type of sound (ie: laid back) although they'll achieve it differently and there'll be different details/nuances to each. This is only a guess. I hope to be able to use my ms-8 in a few cars just to test this out for myself, which leads me into...



Buzzman said:
But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.
Now, at the risk of having an ego (which, anyone who knows me knows that I do not), I have to say that I was very, very happy with my system with the bitone. I thought the tune was great. In this regard, I was a bit prideful, meaning that I wanted to do all the tuning work myself. Therefore, I did. My buddy Andrew helped me tune it last October for about 2 hours after I got the install set up the way I wanted to, finally. After that, I've only had people give feedback. No one else has manned the controls. Why? Because I wanted to do it myself so I'd know what to listen for and how to correct it the best I knew how. This has helped me immensely. In fact, this is my only real 'concern' about the ms-8 and future renditions being the new 'it' factor. I'm a bit worried (how condescending of me) that people will not really know what to listen for if they're not learning what exactly a certain change to X does. IE: You can hear phase 'click' into place when using t/a, but this is only for certain bands of response. When you don't do this yourself, you don't have the knowledge of what to listen for. Of course, it's great for those who don't care, but for folks like me who have gained a better ear because they tuned their own car manually, I feel that the ms-8 could serve as a disadvantage. It's a huge leap and likely not a big concern, but as I said... I have my reasons. *and this is NOT to say I have golden ears... it is to say that I've learned what to listen for because I had to*
I felt I was about 90-95% 'there' overall with my system. The only issue I had lingering was the midbass/subbass which I would have fixed because it was an install problem (thus my new IB wall this weekend). This should only go further to show just how good the ms-8 is. And with the EQ features, one should easily be able to tune their system to their liking. The way the ms-8 handles phase relationships is, IMO, going to be the wave of the future. It's not about EQ. It's about phase. I may be the only person who believes this, but given what I've learned the past year, I'd put my money on a processor that has the ability to adjust phase correctly. I honestly don't think a human can do it better in a car. Very bold statement, I know, and don't PM me with your hate mail, but what I mean is simply this: given a proper measurement/DSP system, a computer should be able to handle the ability to evaluate and correct phase issues. Besides, when we adjust EQ, we're adjusting phase anyway.
It's hardly been touched on, but the way the ms-8 does it's thing - the binaural mics and spacial averaging - is the way we all need to be taking measurements in the car (and home). I'm just now getting on this train of thought; Geddes wrote a paper on it many years ago and a few of the vets here have been preaching it (or did when they were still here). This is, IMO, where the ms-8's enormous capabilities is rooted.
What I would like to see is actual FR, phase, THD, etc plots of the ms-8 outputs and compare that with the bitone. That would be some really cool and interesting things to see for my own technical knowledge... which leads me to...

In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my Bit One, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back.
I'm right there with you, man. In fact, it's the major contributor to why I change gear so often. It's not that I'm disatisfied with my system, or expect to be able to do better with certain gear (not always the case). It's mainly just that I want to toy around with something new, play, and learn (thus my quote).
I don't do well sitting on the sidelines. I don't like taking people's 'word for it', though that's not to say I don't appreciate reviews and factor in those opinions on some purchases.
I don't do this stuff to be an 'internet hero' as I've been called. I do this to learn and to contribute what I learn. I work with many people who can read a book or instruction manual and know exactly how something works by doing that alone; I don't do that. I've tried. I get distracted and start thinking about cookies and milk, or how I need to cut my toenails... whatever. I have to get hands on to learn something. I buy new gear to learn and sometimes put my own thoughts out there hoping others can get something useful from it.

However, in this case, my skepticism is what lead me to desire the ms-8. I didn't want to take someone's word for it (no offense, guys). I didn't think it could do what I did and no way could it be better. I was wrong. But don't think that I won't stop fiddling with things. I've already got plans for future listening.


As I said earlier, my door is open to anyone just about all the time. I'd be more than willing to let anyone demo my car or possibly arrange for you to demo the ms-8 in your own car.


Thanks, Buzz, for reminding me of some of these topics. I saw a frog on my garage wall earlier and forgot everything I intended to remember. I took pictures of it, too. :D
 

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I think there are two reasons to own an MS-8:

1. Because it can tune better than you can and/or
2. You want to incorporate a center and rears

I think the MS-8 takes a lot of the diy out of the car audio hobby for some people. So, I guess it comes down to whether you want to figure it out yourself, or just obtain the best possible sound with the least amount of effort by letting the MS-8 do its thing. And I'm not sure that it's even possible to incorporate a center and rears successfully with manual tuning. Some one can correct me if I'm wrong.

I, for one, have no problem allowing the MS-8 to do most of the work because becoming a master tuner is something that would be very difficult to achieve and I frankly don't have the resources to devote to it. I think very few are great tuners to begin with, and those people have tons of experience that got them there.
 

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I think there are two reasons to own an MS-8:

1. Because it can tune better than you can and/or
2. You want to incorporate a center and rears

I think the MS-8 takes a lot of the diy out of the car audio hobby for some people. So, I guess it comes down to whether you want to figure it out yourself, or just obtain the best possible sound with the least amount of effort by letting the MS-8 do its thing. And I'm not sure that it's even possible to incorporate a center and rears successfully with manual tuning. Some one can correct me if I'm wrong.
You're right. I mean you *could* incorporate a center and rears, but the engineering time and the electronics to accomplish it like the MS-8 would negate the effort anyway :)

I, for one, have no problem allowing the MS-8 to do most of the work because becoming a master tuner is something that would be very difficult to achieve and I frankly don't have the resources to devote to it. I think very few are great tuners to begin with, and those people have tons of experience that got them there.
I'd say even great tuners would be better off with an MS-8 just due to the nature of the algorithm it uses. It's a lot more powerful than typical t/a and 31 band EQs are.
 

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. . . there's NO way I can say that the ms-8 is better than the bitone. I can only give subjective opinions on it's ability to auto tune a system vs. my own ability to tune.
Erin, I am glad you made this point clear. So many on this forum love head to head product "comparisons" and depend on the subjective conclusions of others to dictate their decision making. I think it's paramount that those considering the MS-8 understand that what might make it the right choice for them are the "practical" benefits it offers vis-a-vis other available processors, which lead to sonic rewards that the user might never realize with other processors because their effectiveness is largely dependent upon the human element.


. . . I'm realizing that the odds of everyone's car sounding 'the same' is hardly realistic. User 'error' will dictate results just as much as vehicle acoustics. . . .
I agree 100%, based on my limited MS-8 listening experience thus far. I would also add speaker placement and installation integrity to that list. And, of course, since not everyone uses the same speakers, amplifiers, etc., the chances of everyone's car sounding the "same" are lessened that much more.


. . . this is my only real 'concern' about the ms-8 and future renditions being the new 'it' factor. I'm a bit worried (how condescending of me) that people will not really know what to listen for if they're not learning what exactly a certain change to X does. IE: You can hear phase 'click' into place when using t/a, but this is only for certain bands of response. When you don't do this yourself, you don't have the knowledge of what to listen for. Of course, it's great for those who don't care, but for folks like me who have gained a better ear because they tuned their own car manually, I feel that the ms-8 could serve as a disadvantage. . . .
I agree that as music listeners we are all better off when we understand why we are hearing what we hear and understand what affects what we hear. The MS-8, as executed, eliminates that education. Perhaps that is one way of protecting Harman/JBL's IP.


I'd be more than willing to . . .possibly arrange for you to demo the ms-8 in your own car.
:thumbsup::D I definitely plan to give the MS-8 a personal audition at some point, and will follow up with you on your very generous offer.

Thanks, Buzz, for reminding me of some of these topics. I saw a frog on my garage wall earlier and forgot everything I intended to remember. I took pictures of it, too. :D
:laugh: You are welcome, and thanks for your enlightening post. ;)
 

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.... MS-8 from the day from its release and after so many people get their hands on it, I've yet to see there's people saying "why my system got noise?"....... And do we see people condamn on MS-8? Again I can't. But for BitOne........ Well, even with BitOne.1 or .S, I still can see people complaint about them.... So in terms of simplicity of installations and built quality, MS-8 is better.

What consumer wants when they spend money on a product? Well, after sale service is 1 thing, but what more important is, the quality and people usually don't want to have complaint. If want me to rate MS-8, I will give them a 80%.
 

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In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.
Based off this post by Andy.....even if you analyze what the MS-8 does, it doesn't mean that it can be duplicated on another processor for comparisons sake.
 

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In order to "test" the MS-8 against the BitOne.1, and do so fairly, you will have to at least replicate the EQ executed by the MS-8's auto tune. There will be a rash of efforts comparing the MS-8 to the BitOne.1 (and a lot of interest in such comparisons), but they will be of little merit if they are not apples to apples comparisons. I asked Andy in an earlier post whether the results of the MS-8's auto EQ can be determined by the user, and his response indicates that it can be done, though it will require a good deal of work. If you read Erin's (Bikinpunk's) review, I think he makes it clear that more than anything else he is attributing the results of his listening experience to the MS-8's tuning capabilities, which he has concluded are superior to his. I have heard 2 MS-8 based set-ups. One I would characterize as a work in progress because the MS-8's capabilities were limited, in my view, by speaker placement choices that adversely affected the auto tune process. I was very impressed with what I heard in Big Red's truck, and he too has given kudos to the MS-8's tuning capabilities. I love my BitOne.1, and don't have any plans to dump it. I am one of those (soon to be turned into dinosaurs by the MS-8) who enjoys the hands on experience (and education) of hearing what changes in filters, crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, etc. have on what I hear when music is played back. But, the vast majority of music lovers just don't have the patience, time, or capability to optimally tune their systems, and based on what I have heard the MS-8 offers the easiest path to maximum enjoyment of our music and systems.
Perhaps I need to be more specific with my comment... I'm not interested in the 32-bit by 32-bit comparison between these processors, but mostly in the consumer level of how easy is to each one to sound great to me. :)

I'm extremely happy with the bit one.1 as well, but the idea of creating this front stage thru Auto-EQ and then having a 31-band EQ to fine tune it pick my interest as I like to think that I know how to tune to my musical tastes. Actually, I suggested to Larry F from Audison that some staging effects would be a great addition to the bit one as early as February 2009 as I was very impressed with the sound quality of the first generation bit one.
 

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I didn't want to post my question in this forum to cloud it but if anyone could give advice on my question I posted in the dumb question area I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Matt
 

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Based off this post by Andy.....even if you analyze what the MS-8 does, it doesn't mean that it can be duplicated on another processor for comparisons sake.
Agreed. The fact is that most people on this site yearn for comparisons that declare one product “better” than another. Your post buttresses my point that a true "comparison" of the MS-8 with processors that do not have an auto tune function (BitOne.1, Zapco, etc.) would be extremely difficult, if not futile, and anyone offering conclusions that X is "better" than "Y" or “sounds better” than “Y” in such a comparison would be doing us a disservice if the functional differences are not taken out of the equation.
 

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I don't think comparing the Bit One to the MS-8 is fair, with the Bit One you have total control and that control comes with a price. The price is if you can't tune it's going to sound like Ass.
 

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I don't think comparing the Bit One to the MS-8 is fair, with the Bit One you have total control and that control comes with a price. The price is if you can't tune it's going to sound like Ass.
not true....you cannot control pop on/pop off noises, optical input issues, and engine whine with the bit 1 :) sorry, I could'nt resist :)
 

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Agreed. The fact is that most people on this site yearn for comparisons that declare one product “better” than another. Your post buttresses my point that a true "comparison" of the MS-8 with processors that do not have an auto tune function (BitOne.1, Zapco, etc.) would be extremely difficult, if not futile, and anyone offering conclusions that X is "better" than "Y" or “sounds better” than “Y” in such a comparison would be doing us a disservice if the functional differences are not taken out of the equation.
You should apply that same reasoning to your reviews of the Morel Ultimo and the Bit1 :D

The fact that the MS-8's auto-tuning capabilities can "wash out" the audible differences should also tell you something about the nature of those differences that you are hearing when proclaiming that one product is superior to another....
 

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You should apply that same reasoning to your reviews of the Morel Ultimo and the Bit1 :D

The fact that the MS-8's auto-tuning capabilities can "wash out" the audible differences should also tell you something about the nature of those differences that you are hearing when proclaiming that one product is superior to another....
Ouch! :z:

:beerchug:
 

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I didn't want to post my question in this forum to cloud it but if anyone could give advice on my question I posted in the dumb question area I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Matt
This thread has been to hell and back. Etiquette is nice and all, but does not go far here.
 
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